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Featured Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, Feb 10, 2020.

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  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

    Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
    "30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

    Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
    "10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

    Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
    "20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

    Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
    "28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

    Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
    "38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

    Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
    "17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

    Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
    "7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

    Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
    "35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

    Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
    "20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

    Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
    "22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

    Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
    "9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

    Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
    "4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
    "8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

    2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
    "6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

    2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
    9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

    2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
    "7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

    2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
    "9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

    Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
    "9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

    Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
    "8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

    Scripture tells us that Christ came so that those who believe would not perish:

    John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Matthew 18:14 King James Version (KJV)
    Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

    Its clear from scripture that the wicked will perish.
     
  2. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    What cult do you represent, and what is your view of the stingy rich man in Hades in Luke 16?
     
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member
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    Let me guess : either SDA, JW, or one of the Armstrong-related groups. Time to lay your cards on the table.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus claimed its the place with eternal torment, so He is right, and you are wrong!
     
  5. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Yeshua1,
    re: "Jesus claimed its the place with eternal torment, so He is right, and you are wrong!"

    I'm not aware of any scripture in the KJV which says that anyone other than the devil will be tormented 24/7 for ever and ever. What do you have in mind?
     
  6. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Mark 9:44 should answer this pretty clearly. Then again, people with an agenda tend to believe what they want to believe
     
  7. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    That is why you have to read the Bible as a whole, otherwise you fail to see what it is saying. Look at these text:
    Matthew 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    Matthew 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (as punishment): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire (as punishment): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Mat 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (as punishment):

    Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
     
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  8. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Now take a look at more verses and you find that the wicked will be burned up not burning forever in an eternal fire:
    Malachi 4:3 King James Version (KJV)
    3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

    Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
    20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    The punishment is everlasting destruction, they are separated from God for eternity by this fire and never brought back:
    2 Thessalonians 1:9 King James Version (KJV)
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    You have to understand that it is the destruction, not the process that is forever. God could bring you back but this will be a separation for the ceaseless ages of time. Sin will be no more and neither will the wicked, and Satan will also meet his end..

    Ezekiel 28:13-19 King James Version (KJV)
    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Antichrist and False prophet will be for sure!
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    And that would really be the final word of the Lord on this issue!
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the second death is an eternal state, as destruction is same word used for ruination, as in complete apart from presence of God!
     
  12. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    And the second death is what finally brings a end to sin and the wicked as they cease to exists..

    Here is a study that reads almost as a personal testimony, that I came across on this...
    "There are numerous scriptures that seem to clearly indicate that there is no eternal life for the wicked (not even in Hell). Here are quite a few that I found from the PC Study Bible after doing a search for the words "eternal life" in the concordance...

    Matt 19:16—"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"

    This man spoke of obtaining eternal life. It wasn't as if he already possessed it. Preachers today would probably say to him "Son, you already have eternal life; it's just a matter of where you will spend it." But Jesus never said that.

    Matt 19:29-30—"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

    They will inherit eternal life. This indicates that not everyone has it already.

    Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    This verse admittedly uses the phrase "eternal punishment," but it is juxtaposed against the phrase "eternal life." Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal: there is no reversing it and no coming back from it. If Jesus meant for the punishment to last eternally, he probably wouldn't have contrasted it with the phrase "eternal life" which is clearly meant only for believers. If Jesus had intended what most churches believe he did with this verse, he should have said, "Both the righteous and the unrighteous will go away to eternal life, but the unrighteous will spend it being tortured while the righteous spend theirs in paradise."

    John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

    This is the most quoted verse in the Bible and also one of the clearest accounts on the annihilation of the wicked. "...Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John didn't write that "...whoever believes in Him shall not have everlasting life in torment, but rather have everlasting life in Heaven." The way most churches interpret this, they mentally replace the very clear word "perish" with something that means nearly the opposite: "never perish."

    John 3:36—"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

    John 4:14—"...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

    John 5:24—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

    Once again, the words "eternal life" and "life" are associated strictly with the righteous. The word "death" is reserved for the unrighteous, who will not go to Heaven. It takes a good bit of theological gymnastics to continually reinterpret these divinely inspired Words of God to mean the exact opposite of their natural meanings. Since when does "death" mean "eternal life away from God"? If John intended to say that, he should have used almost any other word instead of "death."
    John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

    John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

    John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

    John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'"

    John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

    Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    This is another very popular verse which is quite clear in its teaching. "The wages of sin is death (not eternal life in torture), but the gift of God is eternal life..."

    Gal 6:8—"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."

    Once again, "eternal life" is from the Spirit and "corruption" is reaped from the flesh.

    Titus 3:7—"so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

    1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

    No murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Most Christians claim that all people, saved and unsaved, have eternal life abiding in them, but this is certainly not what the scriptures teach.

    1 John 5:11—"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

    Eternal life is only in God's son. The unrighteous do not have the gift of eternal life.

    All of the above scriptures were reached in a search for the words "eternal life" in the PC Study Bible. The search actually returned 42 occurrences of the phrase in the NASU version of the Bible. I did not incorporate every single verse because many were essentially repeats of verses I did include (for instance, some of the Gospels record virtually the same teachings of Jesus) and a few others were slightly less clear. However, in the entire Bible, there is not a single verse that records anything to the affect that "everyone has eternal life; it's only a matter of where each will spend it." Yet this is what most of the church today believes."...HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    What Happens When You Die? | Truth About Death

    Is Hell Real? | Hell Truth

    Ghosts: Who Are They? | Ghost Truth

    Where Do People Go When They Die?

    Plenty more resources here -

    Library of Resources: - SDA Maranatha Multicultural Church in American Samoa

    As for Instance:

    Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive – Danny Vierra (PDF)

    The Conditionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 01 – LeRoy Edwin Froom (PDF)

    The Conditionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 02 – LeRoy Edwin Froom (PDF)

    Misunderstood Texts On The State Of The Dead – Secrets Unsealed – Stephen Bohr (PDF)

    Study Guide 10 – Are The Dead Really Dead – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Study Guide 11 – Is The Devil In Charge Of Hell – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    The Afterlife Mystery – Doug Batchelor – Amazing Facts – AFScan (PDF)

    The Final Mystery – Book – Doug Batchelor – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Storacles Of Prophecy 09 – The Witch Of Endor – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Storacles Of Prophecy 10 – Cities Of Ash – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Amazing Adventure Study Guide 08 – Whistling Through The Graveyard – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Absent From The Body – Pocket Book – Joe Crews – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Library Of Sermons 10 – Spirits From Other Worlds – Pocket Book – Joe Crews – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Library Of Sermons 15 – Hell-fire A Twisted Truth Untangled – Pocket Book – Joe Crews – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Library Of Sermons 18 – Spirits Of The Dead – Pocket Book – Joe Crews – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Library Of Sermons 24 – Heaven Is It For Real – Pocket Book – Joe Crews – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Library Of Sermons 28 – The Rich Man And Lazarus – Pocket Book – Joe Crews – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    Marian Messages An Insider Look At Catholicisms Visions And Teachings – Vance Ferrell (PDF)

    Witchcraft Ruins Lives – Vance Ferrell (PDF)

    The Great Controversy (1911) – Ellen G White (PDF)

    Hidden Truth Magazine – Amazing Facts (PDF)

    With more evidence from scripture as necessary. Just ask about the text or passage. Fa'afetai lava.
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Heads up guys, no one is going to read these excessive lengthy posts that drone on.
     
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  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Well, I know how to have a conversation on the subject also. Anything you'd like to take a look at personally?
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    What you know how to do is bloviate
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    IMO many/most Christians it appears do not really believe in an eternal hell of torment 24/7.

    a few decades ago as an associate pastor/youth director the pastor and i had a weekly visitation night to reach the unsaved (door-to-door ministry), visitors, students, etc. with some success and salvation of souls.

    Even then not many went out bearing the word and the precious gospel and so it was over the years it seemed not many believed in the human eternal tragedy of hell of which even some of their loved ones were headed.

    I dont witness in that way anymore my self. i tell myself - times have changed,I'm old, etc...

    So in reality, call me a heretic if you wish, our mouths proclaim one thing our actions another - of all the fundamentals that i could do away with LORD it would be a hell of 24/7 torment.

    BUT by no means stop praying and giving for the cause of the GREAT COMMISSION.

    Something we can all do.
     
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  18. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Amen..
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus himself stated that Hell is eternal, so would trust him on this more than Ellen White!
    hell was prepared for Satan and demons, and they will be eternally punished, as will all lost sinners ending up there!
     
  20. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    I am offering to discuss with you brother, upon a point you choose on the subject of the OP, from the scripture (that final authority in all matters of faith and practice).
     
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