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Is the Holy Spirit the Restrainer?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tom Butler, Jan 3, 2009.

  1. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    God spoke by the "Holy Spirit", Prophets, to Israel, they didn't have a "Comforter".

    Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

    The "Comforter" is the "Holy Spirit", but it is send in "JESUS NAME",

    It's the "voice of Jesus", he didn't "speak" in the OT. (as Jesus)

    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,(of Jesus) whom the Father will send in my name,

    Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (Holy Spirit)

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (Comforter/Holy Ghost)

    If I turn your question around, I can say there was no "Holy Spirit" of God in the OT because there was "NO COMFORTER".


    The "Comforter" is unique to the Church period, not before, not after.

    Israel won't hear/listen to Jesus, (comforter) two thousand years prove that.

    The "Last Trump" of the "voice of Jesus" (Comforter) will rapture the "dead/living",

    Israel will return under the "law and prophets" (Two witnesses) system of the OT, (No comforter)

    Power is only on the side of the "Oppressor" when there is "NO COMFORTER", therefore "HE" must be "taken out of the way".

    Understand it now????
     
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This one;
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    MB
     
  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Jim;
    The Lord will take us away sooner than many think. We don't have long to wait.
    MB
     
  4. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    When they were talking about drilling for more oil, I told them:

    "I'm not looking for a hole in the ground, I'm looking for one in the sky".

    Southern Gospel song. :laugh: :thumbs:
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Frankly, I think the amil club is much harder to discern from scripture.
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    The Holy Spirit working through the church is gone, but the Holy Spirit is never gone. The Holy Spirit in the Church itself restrains evil because these are redeemed people of God. Once they are gone, you have only unbelievers, at least for awhile. There is therefore little or no restraint on sin.
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
    8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
    9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

    I think it's good to post what we are discussing.

    It seems clear to me from the passage that the lawless one is revealed when that which restrains the lawlessness is taken out of the way. Only the Holy Spirit fits this scenario of being to restrain lawlessness, and this is a passage that supports the rapture. See my post above re the Holy Spirit being removed (but not gone). The HS is being removed as the restrainer, not banished!

    Also, I do not think any endtime view - amil, premil, pre-trib, post-trib, etc. is explicitly stated in scripture. All views have some passages for support. To me, it's a matter of which view has the best support using good hermeneutics, and I think the pre-trib view fits that.
     
  8. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    This passage may support the second advent, but it certainly says nothing about a nebulous rapture.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    In browsing around the internet, I found a number of ideas as to the identity of the restrainer.
    Several of the early church fathers believed it was the Roman empire, which still existed at that time. Several later theologians held that the restrainer was human government

    Several felt it was the Church (and the HS), and when the church was raptured, so did the restraint.

    A couple felt it was God himself who was restraining lawlessness.

    One held that it was Satan himself who was holding back the Anti-Christ until the right time.

    One view is that the restrainer is the revived Roman empire of the future.

    And a few held that it is the archangel Michael. They cite several reasons:
    1. The Holy Spirit never did exercise any restraining in any verse in the Bible where he is mentioned.

    2. Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy peace; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time....." The tribulation starts when Michael stands up.

    3. Revelation 12:7-9 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serepent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him." When the Devil is kicked out of heaven, he unleashes his representative and the tribulation begins.

    Is it Michael? Gee, I don't know. I do find it interesting that in II Thess 2:6, Paul said he had already revealed the identity to the Thessalonians and was just reminding them of a few things he had told them before. Only, he didn't say "who withholds," he said "what witholds." Hmm.
     
  10. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Well, Tom that does somewhat line up with what I have been saying, except the one quote which had the rapture notion.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  11. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Let's try this. :laugh:

    When Jesus returns "ALL HIS SAINTS" return "WITH HIM", the OT saints he took to heaven when he ascended, The church, both dead/living (Rapture) and those killed/under the altar from the tribulations.

    There are no "RIGHTEOUS DEAD SOULS" still in the grave at the "Second coming" , they are with Jesus, the only "righteous" still left on/in the earth are the "LIVING", the "Wheat and Tares".

    The Tares are cast into hell with the unsaved dead, which stay dead until the GWT.

    "NO BODY" is "Resurrected" FROM THE GRAVE in the "FIRST RESURRECTION".

    In a "Rapture", people leave the earth, (Enoch/Elijah/Jesus) in a "Resurrection", they are "BACK" on the earth.

    The Rapture, (leaving earth) can not ocur post trib. (returning to earth)
     
  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Understood. When I stated "no pre-trib dispy" I should have been more specific to what "I" meant. I was refering to the mainline or typicaly or majority view.

    Yes, Gentiles will be saved during the Trib and so will Jews.
    Those who have 'no hope' are those who have heard the gospel, - understood it , and rejected it. You will find this in 2 Thes 2:10-12. These and these alone will have no hope. It is similar to Rom 1:18-32 in which we find God giving them over their various sinful desires after rejecting those truths God had personally revealed to them. Here it is the same thing but the magnitude of this event is apparently greater. In the former (Rom 1) they merely rejected the truth for a lie so they could enjoy their sins, here (2 Thes 2, and Rev) we have them rejecting the truth, not just for a lie but for another to replace God whom they know is there.


    Those in the Tribulation will be saved no differently than those in the OT and us of the NT. Their are some distinctions between them regarding what transpires (in the NT we are indwelt and baptised into Christ - in the OT they were not) but their salvation is the same - By grace through faith.
    NO ONE in the OT was indwelt by the Holy Spirit and neither were they spirutally baptised into Christ (which of which constitutes the church body)
     
    #72 Allan, Jan 5, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2009
  13. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    The reason Jim is because this world ruler will not even be known until "that other thing" is FIRST taken out of the way.


    And yes, in the end but in order for that to transpire the 'man of sin', the 'son of perdition', the 'wicked one' (ext...) must first rise to power and domination. It is during that point in which Christ shall return.

    Things will not get better and better and then God will eventually rule. Scripture states that man and sins deception must get worse and worse.
     
  14. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Yet we find the Holy Spirit removing Himself from men in the OT.
    We find Him being removed from the Nation of Israel when they were in sinful rebellion.

    As I said previously, you are hung up on an incorrect understanding.
    He is not removed as in no more here but His functionality of restraining is removed or no longer hindering and what means He was using is al taken out of the way.
     
  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Is the Son God? Of course, but His coming is under the command of the Father. This does not diminish His deity. It is a matter of activity within the godhead.

    So the holy Spirit is God, but under the command of the Father. When, at the precise time of God's choosing, the Father withdraws the gift of the indwelling Spirit, it will be the choice of the Father.

    The only thing hindering the power of Satan and his minyons MUST be something more powerful than him (and he was the most powerful spirit being short of the godhead). This leaves the "hindering" of his work to the godhead alone - in this case it is obviously the holy Spirit.

    The world today, with the indwelling Spirit, will return to an era like the OT when the Spirit was with only a very few and then only temporarily. (And I for one will be glad NOT to be there; I am SO thanful for the gift of permanent indwelling Jesus gave me, His bride)
     
  16. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Actaully Tom, it would be better to get a little more specific here.

    It was not till the 3rd century that this view came into being espoused by Turtullian and Chrysostom. However this is 150 years later.

    These would include the vast majority of 1st, 2nd, and including much of the 3rd century early church fathers.

    One view is that the restrainer is the revived Roman empire of the future.

    And a few held that it is the archangel Michael. They cite several reasons:
    1. The Holy Spirit never did exercise any restraining in any verse in the Bible where he is mentioned.

    2. Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy peace; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time....." The tribulation starts when Michael stands up.

    3. Revelation 12:7-9 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serepent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him." When the Devil is kicked out of heaven, he unleashes his representative and the tribulation begins.

    Is it Michael? Gee, I don't know. [/quote]
    As I stated previously, it can't be.

    1. (in relation to the above #1) The Holy Spirit IS said to restrain but the word is to reprove in John 16:7-8. To reprovemeans not only show them but also implies a correcting of them regarding sin. Thus sin can not go unchecked.

    ...1b.Michael is never said to be a restrainer but a angel who guards or protects the Jewish people. THIS is Key. The one who will let (or restrains) is speaking speficially in relation no to a people but lawlessness (or sin) of the world and particular the one who will bring it into being. Is Michael ever said to be doing this or even insinuated to be so powerful that he like God Himself? Remember when Michael was said to be contending (arguing) over the body of Moses. How did he defeat Satan? He said - The Lord rebuke you. He has no power to overcome much less the power to continue to restrain Satan - Only God does.


    2. If you will read Chapter 11 of Daniel you will find that Michael does not stand up till the latter most part of the Tribulation Now watch this :)
    The context of Dan 12:1 IS NOT that Michael stands and the tribulation occurs but that Michaels standing DURING the Tribulation (as a protector just as in Dan 10)and the Nation shall be delivered/saved, everyone who is found in the Book. Paul says the same thing in Rom 11.
    And Paul in Romans 11:
    Thus his standing up is when is in defending them till their savior comes and actually delivers them - all who are written in book. Thus though an entire Nation is saved, not everyone in the Nation is saved.

    3. That portion of scripture can not be used to validate their view because it is a "flash-back" to what has 'already' transpired. If you continue reading you find that AFTER Satan is cast out he persecutes Israel who gives birth to a 'man child' (Jesus) . But this is true up till verse 15 (because Israel as a Nation was removed from Satan persecutions 'hidden' for a great while). Then she (the Nation Israel) re-emerges in verse 15 where Satan again turns to attaking/persecuting her. However the earth opens up and swallows whatever this 'flood' is so that Satan is even angrier than before. So he turns his attention to those 'true believers' who are what the passage calls "the remnant of her seed" ,those who keep the commandment of God AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ (saved).

    Thus it is impossible for the 'restrainer' to be Michael.

    Umm.. Hold on.
    He does not only state 'that' but also 'He", let us not forget that.
    But this also is exactly what I was saying. The Holy Spirit is 'the Restrainer' (he) and his means is the Church (that). In order for this 'holding back' to be allowed to be loosed that which restrains (in the general sense) must be removed and thus so to must the Holy Spirit in this sense (The Restrainer) be removed.


    A good article can be found here which speaks about the early church fathers views and looks biblically at the foreground which conceptualizes whom the scriptures speak of the 'restrainer' as.
     
    #76 Allan, Jan 5, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2009
  17. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    This is speculaton only, so I won't debate it if I'm challenged.

    Imagine this scenario (and it is as I imagine it):

    The anti-christ does not rise to power after the restraining hand is lifted. He is already inj power. His rise to power will be spectacular, as he will be seen as the savior of a troubled world. It will be a world of chaos, war, economic instability, all sorts of ills. This man will promise to fix it. But in order to fix it, he must be given a free hand . And the people will give him a free hand. It is likely that his actions will east the problems, maybe even fix them. I can hear it in my mind, the people saying "why, the hand of God is on this man. What he's done is nothing short of miraculous."

    But not all will be happy, and he will be assassinated. But wonder of wonders, he survives a mortal head wound. "It's a miracle!" the people should.

    Then the restraining hand is removed, and the world leader reveals his true character. We know the rest of the story.

    Gee, tim LaHaye has nothing on me. I can make up stuff, too.
     
  18. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    He will already be in power. But He will not be 'the power' yet. You can see this in the discription in Revelation where he is seen as a powerful figure head setting up things. He creates a certain group to rule the world through both with but mostly through him, and then He removes them and takes control of it all himself. Scripture does state that he will recieve a mortal wound to the head and come back - even worse than previously. Are you saying that scripture is fictional? :)

    However in your 'story' you have the 'restraining hand' lifted twice but never show where or when it was placed down a second time.
     
    #78 Allan, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2009
  19. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Allan, replying to two of your posts:

    Your critique of the alternate views to the HS as restrainer is interesting. I spent more time on the arguments for Michael as the Restrainer because that seems to be the most widely held alternative, next to the HS. I understand your arguments for the HS. I'm just not there yet. In fact, on this subject, I'm not anywhere yet.

    Regarding my imaginary scenario, I did mention the restraining hand twice,but I intended establish that point first, then flesh it out later. I was not referring to two separate occasions. If you read that into my post, then i was not sufficiently clear. I hope this clarifies.
     
  20. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Have you ever heard the question asked:

    "Why doesn't God work today as he did in the OT, that is with "Signs and wonders"???

    Of course the answer is that Jesus won't give "Signs", save the sign of Jonas.

    But Jesus said Israel won't believe without "signs and wonders".

    Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

    1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,

    If Israel won't hear/obey the voice of Jesus (Comforter/Holy Ghost) and won't believe without "Signs and wonders", which Jesus won't give,

    How can the "VINE" bear "FIGS"??

    Joh 15:5 I am the vine,

    And how can this "Doctrine" (Water) of no signs given exist at the "SAME TIME" signs are given??? (salt/Fresh)

    Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain (God) both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)

    Signs were given under the "Law and prophet" system in the OT, and the tribulation is full of signs and wonders.

    Jesus/church must be taken out of the way "BEFORE" the "DOCTRINE" of no signs given and the "Signs and Wonders" arrive???


    De 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,
    Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst;
     
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