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Featured Is this an error in the KJV?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by robycop3, Apr 2, 2021.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    In the KJV, Job 17:6 reads:6 He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret.

    The word here rendered "tabret" (tamborine), topheth, actually means the act of spitting. The translators mistook it for toph, which means tamborine. Topheth only occurs that one time in the OT, while toph occurs several times. If the translators were inspired, as some KJVOs insist, they shoulda not have made such an oversight, as the KJV's rendition doesn't make sense. (Job was lamenting the sad state he'd fallen in.)

    And the Hebrew word paniym, here rendered 'aforetime", actually means "face". And the Hebrew word "meshowl",(its only appearance in the OT Hebrew) here rendered 'byword', means a derision,(what 'byword' used to mean) so the verse ACTUALLY means that Job had become a derision to the people, & they spit in his face, which was as much of an insult now as it is today.

    The intel was provided to me by a Jew who can read the Hebrew of the OT mss. He has no bias against the KJV. he reminded me that "Job" is the oldest book of Scripture we have, & it has several Hebrew words that don't appear anywhere else in Scripture, so translators have no other uses of a word to help them if the word isn't well-known.

    John Gill gave an explanation, but is he actually right, or did he guess?
    Job 17:6 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
     
  2. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    NKJV
    “But He has made me a byword of the people, And I have become one in whose face men spit
     
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The 1611 KJV follows mostly the 1560 Geneva Bible at this verse. The 1560 Geneva Bible's rendering is as follows:

    He hath also made me a byword of the people, and I am as a tabret before them.

    For its rendering "aftertime" the 1611 edition puts the rendering in the text of the 1560 Geneva Bible in its marginal note: "Or, before them."

    The 1568 Bishops' Bible's rendering of Job 17:6 is as follows:

    He hath made me a by word of the people, where as afore I was their joy.

    A 1540 edition of the Great Bible has this rendering:

    He hath made me as it were a byword of the people where as afore, I was their joy.

    The 1535 Coverdale's Bible has this rendering:

    He hath made me as it were a byword of the common people, I am his gesting stock among them.
     
    #3 Logos1560, Apr 2, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  4. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Right, both topheth and meshowl are hapax legomena, one and done words. Paniym, on the other hand, is used around 1800 times in the Hebrew Bible. Both the KJV and NASB translate it numerous ways, most often as "before." (It appears NASB doesn't actually translate it in Job 17:6.)
    Plenty of people lamenting the sad state they've fallen into remember their former state as part of the lament. (16:12 would be one example in the book of Job.)
    Regardless of whether Gill is right or wrong, I doubt that he was guessing. It is my understanding that he was recognized as a scholar of the Hebrew language (e.g., he wrote, A Dissertation Concerning the Antiquity of the Hebrew Language, Letters, Vowel-Points, and Accents in 1767). In addition, he references the writing of two Jewish Rabbis -- Rabbi ben Gershom (ca. 960 -1040) and Aben Ezra (ca. 1090 - ca. 1165) -- and a Targum of Job.

    William Cathcart wrote: “In comparatively early life he began to collect Hebrew works, the two Talmuds, the Targums, and everything bearing on the Old Testament and its times, and it is within bounds to say that no man in the eighteenth century was as well versed in the literature and customs of the ancient Jews as John Gill. He has sometimes been called the Doctor John Lightfoot of the Baptists.”
     
    #4 rlvaughn, Apr 2, 2021
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  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Are you suggesting that when men use collation, comparison, and study to attempt to find sources (or perhaps justification) for KJV readings and renderings that it should not be considered guessing?
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Why doesn't "as a tabret" make sense with the context of the verse? Because a tabret was played at joyous occasions such as dances & parties, not derisive or sad events, as I've been told by several Jews.
     
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I am suggesting that John Gill studied widely and deeply, and founded what he wrote about John 17:6 (and most everything else) based on that study. "Guess" often has the connotation of forming an opinion from little or no evidence, which is the way I took the question. You can think what you want about John Gill, and call what he did whatever you want.
     
    #7 rlvaughn, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  8. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    What does the Greek Septuagint and Latin Vulgate say? The Syraic Peshitta?
     
  9. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    The Septuagint has ἔθου δέ με θρύλημα ἐν ἔθνεσι, γέλως δὲ αὐτοῖς ἀπέβην, which Brenton translates as "But thou has made me a byword among the nations, and I am become a scorn to them." The Latin Vulgate has Posuit me quasi in proverbium vulgi, et exemplum sum coram eis, which Douay-Rheims translates as "He hath set me as it were for a proverbe of the comon people, and I am an example before them" (1609) or "He hath made me as it were a byword of the people, and I am an example before them" (DRA, 1899). Not sure about the Peshitta.
     
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  10. MichaelBoryAlis

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    So many mistranslations in the KJV like other translations. The big one is translation Zoe Aionious to "Eternal Life" when it should be translated "The Life of the Ages" - big difference.
     
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Michael, welcome to the Baptist Board. I hope you find it helpful.
     
  12. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    No, Robycop, that sort of drumming sound is not exclusively used to express joyfulness/partying, despite what you got "several Jews" to say in your quest to find an error in the KJB.

    Did they forget the "tabering" (figurative) in Nahum 2:7 "...led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead her as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts."
     
    #12 Jerome, Apr 3, 2021
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  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    That's a lot different from playing a musical instrument.

    Huzzab was queen of Nineveh when Nahum made his prophecy. And most modern translations read "beating". Same thing.
     
    #13 robycop3, Apr 3, 2021
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  14. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Job 17:6 in the 1933 English translation of the Peshitta by George Lamsa is as follows:

    "He has granted power to the nations; I shall be derided before them."
     
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  15. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The 1917 English translation of the Masoretic Text by the Jewish Publication Society has this rendering of Job 17:6

    He hath made me also a byword of the people; And I am become one in whose face they spit.

    The 1985 Tanakh The Holy Scriptures [the new JPS translation according to the traditional Hebrew text] has this rendering of Job 17:6

    He hath made me a byword among people; I have become like Tophet of old.
     
    #15 Logos1560, Apr 3, 2021
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  16. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    One of the great tragedies is that William Tyndale was put to death before he could translate the poetical books. No one had Tyndale to go by.
     
  17. Stratton7

    Stratton7 Member

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    My concordance says the Hebrew word “topeth” (meaning spittle) and not “toph” was used for the word tabret. Which would mean it’s not referring to an instrument here at all from what I’m understanding.
     
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Right. A tabret was generally used for joyous occasions, much as they are today. No one would pass a man he despises & play a tabret before him !
     
  19. Stratton7

    Stratton7 Member

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    This is interesting here that I came across. According to a commentary by Matthew Henry (don’t agree with his soteriology), this is something to consider:

    He was a despised man (Job 17:6): "He" (that is, Eliphaz, so some, or rather God, whom he all along acknowledges to be the author of his calamities) "has made me a byword of the people, the talk of the country, a laughing-stock to many, a gazing-stock to all and aforetime (or to men's faces, publicly) I was as a tabret, that whoever chose might play upon." They made ballads of him his name became a proverb it is so still, As poor as Job."He has now made me a byword," a reproach of men, whereas, aforetime, in my prosperity, I was as a tabret, deliciæ humani generis--the darling of the human race, whom they were all pleased with. It is common for those who were honoured in their wealth to be despised in their poverty.

    Doesn’t appear to be an error by this description.
     
    #19 Stratton7, Apr 4, 2021
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  20. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    This reminds me in the preface to the 1611 KJV. The Translators to the Reader

    ................There be many words in the Scriptures, which be never found there but once, (having neither brother nor neighbor, as the Hebrews speak) so that we cannot be holpen by conference of places. Again, there be many rare names of certain birds, beasts and precious stones, etc. concerning which the Hebrews themselves are so divided among themselves for judgment, that they may seem to have defined this or that, rather because they would say something, than because they were sure of that which they said, as S. Jerome somewhere saith of the Septuagint. Now in such a case, doth not a margin do well to admonish the Reader to seek further, and not to conclude or dogmatize upon this or that peremptorily? For as it is a fault of incredulity, to doubt of those things that are evident: so to determine of such things as the Spirit of God hath left (even in the judgment of the judicious) questionable, can be no less than presumption. Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: so diversity of signification and sense in the margin, where the text is no so clear, must needs do good, yea, is necessary, as we are persuaded.

    They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other.

    The Translators to the Reader
     
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