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Is this fair?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Mar 29, 2008.

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  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I'll share my rolling pin if you'll share your chocolate snack!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    I think yours is a very good explanation.


    Hbr 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
     
  3. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Looks like I'm loosing my job to Amy :laugh: Good post Amy and one that must be delt with if we are to maintain any biblical truth in relation to the Atonment made.
     
  4. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    No one I know has ever made the statement that God demands payment twice for the same sins (with the exeption of SFIC and Linda)

    Going back to the Landlord theme:
    You owe a debt to the Landlord and not just you but the whole town does (He owns it all and everyone is renting from him :) ).
    Yet no one is able is able to pay up what is due him for their incurred obligation.

    Now the Son of the Landlord (who knowing the situation) who loved all those of the town, decided He would make good on everyones debt.

    He did this by pain stakingly showing His father that he had all that it would take to satisfy their debt against them. The Father (landlord) after witnessing this 'was satisfied' in the offering His Son made for them.

    But since the debt was against the individual people and contracts were signed making them resposible (man's resposiblitiy) for any payments, THEY had to agree to allow the Son to pay for their debts.

    There were some who knowing their state and that without some intervention they were deserving of the legal punishment that awaited them. Thus they took the Son at His word and believed that He alone was able to make the required payment for them.

    There were others who did not think He was able to it alone (since the town was big and the debt close to that of the National one), but figured they would use him more like a co-signer (safty-net) and they would figure something out later. And other who who refused such generosity because if they can't do it then it can't be done.

    Only those who will believe that Christ alone is able to save will have their debts removed. The payment is not made twice, it is made once - the real question is who will be the one resposible to make it. God is satified with the payment that Christ procurred but scripture states that payment is NOT applied but by faith, and that it is by faith we are Justified in the eyes of God the Father.
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

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    Actually Allan, neither Linda, nor myself said sins have to be paid for twice.

    What we have consistently said is if one goes to hell, one goes with their sins paid for.

    The payment was made at Calvary with the Blood of the Sacrificial Lamb Jesus Christ.

    Man goes to hell simply because he chooses to reject Christ and His gift of love.
     
  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    No one I know has ever made the statement that God demands payment twice for the same sins (with the exeption of SFIC and Linda)

    Going back to the Landlord theme:
    You owe a debt to the Landlord and not just you but the whole town does (He owns it all and everyone is renting from him :) ).
    Yet no one is able is able to pay up what is due him for their incurred obligation.

    Now the Son of the Landlord (who knowing the situation) who loved all those of the town, decided He would make good on everyones debt.

    He did this by pain stakingly showing His father that he had all that it would take to satisfy their debt against them. The Father (landlord) after witnessing this 'was satisfied' in the offering His Son made for them.

    But since the debt was against the individual people and contracts were signed making them resposible (man's resposiblitiy) for any payments, THEY had to agree to allow the Son to pay for their debts.

    There were some who knowing their state and that without some intervention they were deserving of the legal punishment that awaited them. Thus they took the Son at His word and believed that He alone was able to make the required payment for them.

    There were others who did not think He was able to it alone (since the town was big and the debt close to that of the National one), but figured they would use him more like a co-signer (safty-net) and they would figure something out later. And other who who refused such generosity because if they can't do it then it can't be done.

    Only those who will believe that Christ alone is able to save will have their debts removed. The payment is not made twice, it is made once - the real question is who will be the one resposible to make it. God is satified with the payment that Christ procurred but scripture states that payment is NOT applied but by faith, and that it is by faith we are Justified in the eyes of God the Father through His Son Atoning work.
     
    #66 Allan, Apr 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2008
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Why did some of the first born of the OT die? Why didn't the death angel passover them?
     
  8. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    If Christ paid the penalty for all sin, then all penalties regarding any sinful acts is pardoned, including unbelief and rejection of Christ.

    The scriptures state: "for a person to know to do good and does it not, to them it is sin."

    For unbelief and rejection of Christ are sins just as murder and lieing are therefore their penalty resulting in damnation is removed as well through your view of the Atonment.

    Scripture states that the propitiation (atonment) made by Christ is applied to us by faith. (Rom 3:24-26) And that justification through His atonment is by faith.
     
    #68 Allan, Apr 3, 2008
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  9. standingfirminChrist

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    He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son hath not life...

    It is only for the rejection of Christ one ends up in hell. Christ already paid for the sins of the whole world.
     
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    When one rejects Christ, he also rejects His blood, which is the atonement. He also rejects the application of the blood. So, he dies "in his sin".
     
  11. standingfirminChrist

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    The blood was not applied. Does not mean the blood was not shed. They just did not accept the only way of escape.

    Christ shed His blood for our sins; and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. He paid the price for every sin ever committed or that would ever be committed. Those who reject Him are rejecting the result of the shedding of blood, but the payment was made nonetheless.

    They go to hell with their sins paid for.
     
  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    What is sin?

    Rejection of Christ is sin and the condemnation in your view has been removed because His payment has already been applied to all men everywhere.

    Scripture doesn't say that, and Amy as well as others brought up some of many that contradict what you accert. If the penalty of sin has been paid already then no one is under God's wrath, and that makes everyone at peace and in a right relationship with God - thus everyone is born saved in your view, or so it seems.
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    One who has never even heard of Christ ( much less the Gospel ) has not rejected Christ . One can't reject what one has never heard .
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Rejection is choice, not sin.
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    That's a hoot ! But it is consistent with the mindset of those of your position -- just something no one else from your camp has actually uttered yet to my knowledge .

    So these hell-bound people have had their sins paid for , but they will have to pay for their sins in Hell for eternity anyway . Perfectly illogical .
     
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Please clarify . One can only reject what knows consciously .

    Those who have indeed heard the Gospel and reject Christ are making a sinful choice . It really is sin .
     
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    What did Jesus mean when He said:

    Jhn 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins."


    How can one die in his sins, if they have been forgiven?
     
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Just because no one but Linda and SFIC have made the statement does not negate the logical run of that theological frame of mind is indeed that God requires two payouts for the very same sin debt .
     
  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Logical to some maybe.
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Your Landlord theme breaks down as a metaphor on several fronts . Number # is the fact that in the Bible God the Father willingly brought to fruition Christ's death . God loved sinners to the extent that He sent Jesus . Christ did not have to convince His Father and the Father did not have to witness the Son's satisfaction for Him to comply with the Son's wishes .
     
    #80 Rippon, Apr 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2008
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