Is this fair?

True and therefore it can be modified somewhat to illistrate that and (in short) say the Father desired the Son to do this and the Son also desiring it agreed.
Thank you for that help.

No one said he 'had to', I was illstrating that all was done by the Son to the satisfaction of the Father.

Again, no said the Father did not 'have to' witness anything. But we do know that the payment was due God and the sacrifice had to be perfect 'in the eyes of God', thus He would be watching and bearing witness to the event that it was indeed acceptable and perfect.

It was Christ's obedience to the Father where by the Father was pleased with Him. If the Son was not in union with the Father the Father can not comply with the wishes of the Son. (that is not an actaul possiblity but hypothetically speaking, and using us as that same illistration the point is still suffient though not perfect - IMO)

 

Rejection of Christ is not sin...it is a choice. Jesus said:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

They chose to remain in the darkness because their deeds were evil.

Christ died and shed His blood on the cross of Calvary for the sins of the whole world. This was done ONCE.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Salvation is the gift of God given to whosoever will believe. Acceptance of that gift of salvation is a choice. To reject this gift of salvation is also a choice.

There is a penalty for sin...Jesus paid that penalty..."the wages of sin is death...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

When you reject Christ, you have decided to remain in God's wrath (John 3:36; 1 John 5:12)

Our condemnation is not removed until we choose to trust Christ.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

To abort a fetus in the womb is just "a choice" too , according to some .

Rejection of Christ is sin .To say otherwise is sinful . But believe what you will , it's your choice .:laugh:

 

Rejection of Christ is a sin.

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pe 4:17 For the time [has come] for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if [it begins] with us first, what will [be] the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

 

Actually, rejection of Christ is not sin. Sin is transgression of the Law.

Of the 10 commandments in the Old Testament and the 2 in the New, not one states one must accept Christ as part of the Law.

One has not transgressed the Law in one's rejection of Christ. Therefore, rejection of Christ is not sin, it is choice.

 

...and the law states to have no other gods besides Him. Rejection of Christ is just that.

 

Dale, your analogy of the Landlord leaves no room for a loving and merciful God, a God without greed. That is my first thought of my God. As powerful and almighty as He is, He still loves me and the world enough to give His only begotten Son to cover the debt. The "friend" who paid the rent was no stranger to God.

love,

Sopranette

 

Couldn't have said it better myself, which is why it came from you :thumbs:

All sin is based upon 'choice'. We 'choose' to obey the Law and God and we choose to do or not do that which is we know is good,. Therefore in not choosing any of these in the positive or obedient sense it is a sin to us. Thus says the scriptures and thus it shall ever be.

The choices God gives to us have only two optional outcomes - Sin or righteousness, there is no neutral choices we can make that neither condemns us or is sanctifying us.

If our choice brings damnation it is because it is sin, period. The wages (payment or penalty of) sin is death (seperation from God). If there is no penalty then sin bares forth no wages unto death and we are not under God's wrath.

 

Act 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Act 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.


God commands all men to repent. To disobey a command of God is sin.

 

Rejection of Christ is not sin... it is choice.

 

SFIC, you keep saying that people go to hell with their sins forgiven.

I would still like for you to explain to me what Jesus meant when He said:

"If you do not believe I am He, you will die in your sins".

How does one die in their sins, if they have been forgiven?

 

No, I have been shown multiple opinions why it is sin. I have shown why rejection of Christ is not sin.

As to the remark about serving no other gods, who was it that gave that command? It was Jehovah God Himself. We know because verse 2 identifies Him as "LORD." When all caps are used it is speaking of God the Father.

The Son is not mentioned in the Law at all.

Again, rejection is not sin, it is choice.

 

I agree with Dale; this is heresy. It is unbelief of the worst kind. The Book of Hebrews describes the sin of unbelief in quite of bit of detail.
However, John 3:16 does say that Christ died for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). There is a sense in which the sins of all the world are forgiven. But if that forgiveness is not accepted it is fruitless, useless, has no value. It is a thought to consider.
I know of a lady (and this type of situation arises often in the media) who was brutally attacked, and then her attacker tried to rape her. She is left paralyzed. She has forgiven her attacker. Her attacker was never brought to justice and still roams the street. Though she has forgiven; he has not accepted her forgiveness, she has forgiven him for what he has done to her. Her forgiveness is unconditional based on the love of God. Does his rejection of her forgiveness negate her forgiveness? Does man's rejection of God's forgiveness negate God's forgiveness of man's sin?

 

I'd still like to know how one can die in his sins even though he's been forgiven. (according to SFIC)

 

Neither SFIC nor myself keep saying that a person goes to hell with their sins forgiven. When a person goes to hell, they go there with their sins PAID FOR. Forgivness of sins comes when the BLOOD is applied by trusting Christ's finished work on the cross of Calvary.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Again, nobody goes to hell with their sins forgiven. We all deserve hell. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. The atonement was universal, but salvation comes only to those who trust in Christ. One CHOOSES to trust Christ as they CHOOSE to reject Him. The sin is not the rejection of Christ...the sin is "loving the darkness rather than the Light". (John 3:19)

 

The debt has been paid.

The debt has been forgiven.

They are the same thing.


The wages of sin is death (spiritual, eternal separation from God in hell)

Sin is the reason people are in hell.


Yes, Christ paid the debt for all, but only those that apply the blood, through faith (as in the OT) will escape eternal death. Those that do not apply the blood of Christ through faith will go to hell (die in their sins). Their sin remains, the wrath of God remains upon them.



Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

 

More heresy. God the Father and Jesus Christ are one. You reject One, you reject Both.

Taking your approach having other gods besides Christ is perfectly acceptable, because that Scripture doesn't apply to The Son. Pish tosh.

 

Rejection of Christ is not sin, it is choice.

The sin is in what you have chosen (loving the darkness, things of this present world, etc.), not what you have rejected.

Jesus illustrated that a person commits adultery when one looks at a woman to lust after her in one's heart. Now, was the sin in the looking away? or the looking?

When one rejects Christ, the rejection (looking away) is not the sin.