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Is Wayne Grudem Right?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AndyMartin, May 25, 2017.

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  1. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    "In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

    God "ordains" that we carry out evil deeds, and then after following His "ordination", He holds us accountable? Wow, if this is not making God the "author" of sin, then I don't know what it means. for sure the Holy Bible does NOT teach this anywhere. But for those who hold that God has "decreed everything that comes to pass", this is what they would have to teach.

    This looks like heresy to me!
     
    #1 AndyMartin, May 25, 2017
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I think the "H" word is a bit strong.

    So, what if it is true? i.e. God removes Himself from being the first hand doer of evil by "assigning" others to do it. Or, He allows evil to take it's natural course.

    He does whatever He wishes - correct?

    Psalm 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

    But since you brought it up Andy, what is an alternative view which has a better end result as to God's involvement with evil.

    Thanks, just curious Andy (I like your style :))

    HankD
     
    #2 HankD, May 25, 2017
  3. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    Hi Hank, thanks.

    The Bible does tell us that God is Perfect and Holy and Just and Righteous, etc, and that the whole of the created world is sinful and lost before Him. God cannot be the "author" of sin in any way, nor be tempted by sin, nor tempt anyone with sin.

    The Bible does also tell us that there is evil/sin in the world, and that the person responsible for this is the devil. We also know that he was created perfect, and that through pride and treason against God, he was cast out of God's presence. We also know from Job, that he is fully accountable to God, and cannot work outside of the Divine Will of God.

    The Bible does not tell us where sin originated and how the devil was able to fall, as he would have been created perfect, part of God's creation, where God said, "it is good". It is folly and indeed dangerous to try to understand the origin of evil/sin, apart from the Bible's Teaching.

    The Bible also does teach that God created mankind as "free agents", that that each person is fully responsible for their actions, and held accountable for any wrong that they do, in accordance with the teachings of Scripture. This means that there can be no external force that enables or entices or encourages us to sin, except the devil and his angles, who is the "father of lies", and by our yielding to his lies.

    The Bible shows from accounts like Ahab and Job, and the murder of Jesus, that God does USE wickedness and sinful people to accomplish His purposes. The problem with the Reformed thinking is, they wrongly assume, that just because God fore-knows all things, that He fore-ordains them!

    I might add that there is much mystery in this whole thing. But to accept the "logic" of Grudem and others, is against the Bible, and a great danger of making God the author of OUR sins.

    btw, by "heresy" I mean "unbiblical" and "unorthodox", not that Grudem is a heretic!
     
    #3 AndyMartin, May 25, 2017
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes I agree about the mystery part.

    One of the reasons I don't like labels (e.g. Reformed, Calvinistic, etc) is because of the many who want to do a verbal tap dance around these difficult questions such as

    God being Almighty and OmniEverything where did evil come from?

    My own answer is - I don't know but it wasn't God.

    I am perfectly content with my own answer and when folks object to it I simply repeat it.

    :Cool

    HankD
     
    #4 HankD, May 25, 2017
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Everything that has happened, and will ever happen, is either due to God directly causing it, or God permitting it, correct?
    And it would be a mystery here, as we are finite, and we would not be able to understand this fully!
     
    #5 Yeshua1, May 25, 2017
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  6. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes I am perplexed but not in despair, like Paul wrote.
    :)
     
    #6 Rob_BW, May 25, 2017
  7. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    Grudem says that God "ordains" sinful actions. So, does this mean that the guy who just murdered 22 people here in England, was acting because God "ordained" his actions? This is an outrage to suggest!
     
    #7 AndyMartin, May 25, 2017
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Did those who put Jesus to death do so under God's direction?

    This is a very good article addressing this issue:

    Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained That Evil Be? | Desiring God
     
    #8 annsni, May 25, 2017
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  9. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    #9 AndyMartin, May 25, 2017
  10. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    If evil does not originate by God's ordination, then who created evil? What other god created it?

    If there was to be good, how could one know what it is if there is no evil?

    Ultimately we have to acknowledge that we are like infants trying to understand their parent. The vast difference in knowledge leaves us at a loss to understand.
    Can we trust God's plan or must we demand that God condescend to our infantile mind and devulge all that we demand on our terms and according to our way of thinking?
    Why is it so hard to just trust God's plan?
     
    #10 MennoSota, May 25, 2017
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  11. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    Don't try to understand God or all of His ways. We are responsible for what we are told in the Bible, and not make it up to answer questions. If evil has its "originating" in God, then, regardless of what words you might use, this makes God the AUTHOR of sin/evil! Which is a preposterous idea. The Bible is silent on the origin of sin/evil, which means the Lord did not want us to know. Simple. This does not mean we use our faulty understanding to try to work this out. Calvinism on this is very wrong and very unbiblical!
     
    #11 AndyMartin, May 25, 2017
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Who is the other creator you propose?

    Is Satan a god who creates on his own?

    Do you see your dilemma?
     
    #12 MennoSota, May 25, 2017
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  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Evil did not have to be created for it has no concrete substance.

    Evil is the lack of righteousness.

    Just as dark is the absence of light.

    And cold is the absence of heat.
     
    #13 TCassidy, May 25, 2017
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  14. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I don't think it's heresy. The man says, flat out, it's a mystery and he's not sure how it all fits together. I, personally, would stress the mystery of it even more. But, I don't have a problem with the term ordain because I don't think any future can happen without God's ordination. And I don't think any future can come about without God's knowledge.

    One key might be knowledge occurring logically prior ordination in Romans 8:28-30, but regardless, God has known and ordained, from the foundations of the world, that sin would happen, and He has known about and ordained all the specific instances.

    I think this is about as good an explanation as any.
     
    #14 Calminian, May 27, 2017
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God also had predetermine that Jesus would die, as was prophetic word that tMessiah MUST die upon the Cross!
    So in the end, who put Jesus upon the Cross and Killed him?
    the trinity!
     
    #15 Yeshua1, May 27, 2017
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God permitted them to happen, as we are still in a world being run by the evil One, as this world system still allowed to berun under his ways, but the Second Coming will forever end that!
     
    #16 Yeshua1, May 27, 2017
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvinism does NOT make God the author of evil though....
     
    #17 Yeshua1, May 27, 2017
  18. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    There is a BIG difference between God "permitting" and "ordaining", unless the meaning of these words have been changed!
     
    #18 AndyMartin, May 27, 2017
  19. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    their "theology" does!
     
    #19 AndyMartin, May 27, 2017
  20. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    Yes, Jesus' death was "predetermined" by God, because as part of the Plan for Redemption, Jesus had to die on the cross. However, God used and not caused Judas to betray Jesus, as God cannot tempt or lead anyone to do evil!
     
    #20 AndyMartin, May 27, 2017
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