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Featured Isaiah 14:12: Lucifer, Satan, Morning Star

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by rlvaughn, Jul 15, 2018.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    In the thread Apostates and Heretics behind the texts underlying modern translations, Sovereign Grace posted the following:
    He and Yeshua1 discussed it briefly, but dropped it since it was not the topic of the post. I've started a thread for the discussion. Here are some translations of that verse in Isaiah 14:12

    Isaiah 14:12 Wycliffe Bible A! Lucifer, that risedest early, how fellest thou down from heaven; thou that woundedest folks, felledest down altogether into the earth.
    Isaiah 14:12 1599 Geneva Bible How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning? andcut down to the ground, which didst cast lots upon the nations?
    Isaiah 14:12 King James Version How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    Isaiah 14:12 American Standard Version How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!
    Jesaja 14:12 Luther Bibel 1545 Wie bist du vom Himmel gefallen, du schöner Morgenstern! Wie bist du zur Erde gefällt, der du die Heiden schwächtest!
    Isaías 14:12 Reina-Valera Antigua: Cómo caiste del cielo, oh Lucero, hijo de la mañana! Cortado fuiste por tierra, tú que debilitabas las gentes.
     
  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,[Isaiah 14:3,4a]

    The context of the rest is in reference to the king of Babylon, whether it be Nebuchadnezzar or Belshazzar. In Daniel 5 there we can read where the hand writing on the wall spelled out Belshazzar's fate after he took the gold and silver vessels that Nebuchadnezzar took when he captured and enslaved Israel, and used them in worship to their idols.

    In my opinion, 'Lucifer' is referring to the Babylonian king, not a pre-fallen Satan.
     
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  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    “How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased! The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution.[Isaiah 14:4b-6] Here we see the oppressor has stopped. The LORD has broken him off. This is talking about a Babylonian king who had had Israel in bondage, in captivity, not a pre-fallen Satan.

    “The whole earth is at rest and is quiet; they break forth into shouts of joy. “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’ “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. “They will all respond and say to you, ‘Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’[Isaiah 14:7-11] Maggots and worms is referring to the body of the Babylonian king, that when he buried, they will devour his physical body.

    Again, NONE of this is referring to a pre-fallen Satan. It is referring to the Babylonian king, whether it be Belshazzar(which is who I believe is being referred to here) or Nebuchadnezzar.

    Orville Nave, of the Nave's topical bible, states Lucifer is referring to Nebuchadnezzar, FWIW.
     
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  4. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    This is the initial statement that you made, and one I would be interested in your teasing out further:
    As I understand your statement, the first part is that the King James translators use the Latin word Lucifer. With that I would agree. The second part is stated as cause and effect -- because it was translated this way, now people believe that the Bright Star or Lucifer is Satan, but did not before then. Is that what you intended? Now it may be that some people believe it for that reason, but if cause and effect was intended, then you are incorrect.

    First, it can easily be seen from Wycliffe and Geneva that the King James translators did not originate the usage. Second, it is not that hard to show that people before 1611, even people who didn't read English, believed that the person in Isaiah 14:12 was Satan, in his state before the fall. For example, Tertullian in Against Marcion, Book 5 identifies the person in Isaiah 14:12 as the devil.
    I believe such statements from early church fathers might be multiplied, but I suppose one should be enough to show that the belief in Lucifer as Satan in Isaiah 14:12 -- whether right or wrong -- is not some recent invention, and does not owe its existence to the King James Version of the Bible.
     
    #4 rlvaughn, Jul 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  5. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I decided to add one more, Origen in De Principiis, Book One:
    Both of these (Tertullian & Origen) probably wrote in the 200s AD.
     
  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Well, my point is the KJV translators used what resources they had, limited as they were. Now, I am not one to speak very much about them, as there as many more ppl with better knowledge of what they used than me. From what little I know, it was Jerome who imported the Latin word 'Luciferum'(I believe that was the Latin word, but could be wrong) which meant 'bringer of light'. Then somewhere along the way, ppl saw that passage in Isaiah 14 and ascribed it to the fall of Satan. I just don't see it there, though I once believed that very thing. The context up through vs 11 is about a man, a Babylonian king who met his demise. Then all of a sudden vs 12 flips to the fall of Satan? O O :rolleyes::confused::Cautious:ThumbsdownO O
     
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Yes, it is a Latin word, and comes into English from Latin. Jerome may have been the first to use "Lucifer" in a Bible translation -- couldn't say for sure -- but unless Roberts-Donaldson was "back-translating" Lucifer in Origen's writing, it was in use for this text a couple hundred years before Jerome's Vulgate.
    We've been studying the book of Isaiah for about a year and a half (I think) in our adult Bible study. There seem to be plenty of "flips" in his prophecies that are mind-boggling to me. (I accept them as truth, just often don't understand them.)
     
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    If you read the verses leading up the vs 12, you see that the world is rejoicing at the demise of 'Lucifer'. Look at how big Babylon was at their peak. It was after Babylon was destroyed that these verses leading up to verse 12 speaks to the king that was defeated. He was once lofty, once ruler over a vast empire. Then all of a sudden he was cut down. Then we see ppl mocking him by saying "Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?"Isaiah 14:16b,17] It was after Babylon had been conquered by the Medo-Persian army, led by King Cyrus II, that ppl saw the Babylonian king wasn't as tough as they thought it was.

    Consequently, it was Cyrus II who allowed the Jews to go back and build the Temple in the book of Ezra. I still believe 'Lucifer' is referring to Belshazzar, son of Nabonidus.
     
  9. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Origen has been the Origen-ator of more than one line of error.
     
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  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Making its "origen" precede the KJV by 1400 years. :)

    I suspect more commentators (at least the ones I read) think this is Nebuchadnezzar (or some other King of Babylon) than think it is pre-fallen Satan. Gill, for example:
    If looking for the primary purveyor of the pre-fallen Satan perception to the pious American public, my money would be on Scofield, Cyrus Ingerson:
     
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  11. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    “Hermeneutics (principles of interpretation)
    There is no doubt that both passages in question refer to earthly kings. Isaiah refers to the “king of Babylon.” The passage in Ezekiel refers to the “ruler of Tyre” One could call this the greater context.But both passages also include parenthetic statements that would seem inappropriate, even impossible, if applied to a human. At this point one has to consider a basic hermeneutic principle sometimes referred to as the principle of double reference.

    Simply put, a single passage ‘applying primarily to a person or event near at hand’ can also have another person in mind. Examples of this can be seen with passages used of Christ.

    1. Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” The immediate context of the passage refers to Israel. But Matthew 2:14 applies this passage to Christ, ” . . . out of Egypt I called my son.” The principle of double reference would state that Israel was a son, nationally, but the greater “Son” was Christ.”
    • It seems hard to envision the king of Babylon “falling out of heaven.” The verse implies that the one who has fallen originally started out in heaven—that heaven was his original home. The fact that the fall from heaven is literal is enforced with the phrase “You have been cast down to the earth.” This certainly could not apply to an earthly ruler.
    • The sin that the “king” proposes in his five “I wills” seems to go far beyond any human’s most outlandish and egotistical aspirations. On the other hand it is completely consistent with what one would expect of Satan.
    • How did the king propose to “ascend into heaven”?
    • Did the king really think he could usurp God’s throne?
    • Did he think he could sit on the sacred mountain? This indeed seems a most unlikely human ambition, even for a very evil king.
    • The reference to “the stars of God” is usually interpreted as referring to angelic beings (Job 38:7). Did the king really think he could rule over them?
    • Did the king really think he could be like the Creator God—the Most High?
    It is interesting how God has revealed information to us about Satan throughout Scripture in the writings of the many different prophets and apostles. From all these different passages we get a unified and non-contradictory picture of what Satan is like and what he does.

    • In Luke 10:18, Luke tells us that Satan fell from heaven like a bolt of lightning and in Ezekiel 28, the prophet explains who threw him out of heaven and why.
    • 1 Timothy 3:6 states that Satan came into judgment because of pride. Isaiah 14 gives us a detailed look at the nature of Satan’s pride.

    http://www.goodseed.com/blog/2012/11/16/do-isaiah-14-and-ezekiel-28-speak-of-satan/
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    King Belshazzar thought nothing of Daniel's God. In fact, he mocked him when he used the gold and silver vessels his grand-father Nebuchadnezzar took when he seized Jerusalem. He and his family and friends drank unto their gods using vessels used in service to God.

    I see him saying "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High,"[Isaiah 14:13,14] as mocking the God of the Jews. Remember when Nebuchadnezzar said "But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”[Daniel 3:15b] It was later God opened his eyes and understanding to who He is, and we can read what he wrote at the end of Daniel 4. So I see what the king said about ascending to the throne of God as him mocking the God of the Jews, not believing He really existed.
     
  13. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Lucifer/Satan is the true king of Babylon (even now also, Babylon the Great).

    Psalms 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?

    Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.​

    Do not merely see humanity in the passage, as written:

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

    Satan is even, ultimately (though not only, for there are symbols being used), the "king" in Revelation 9:11, etc.

    Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.​

    Notice:

    Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Daniel 1:2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.

    Daniel 3:13 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.

    Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.

    (Nebuchadnezzar was ultimately saved after this)

    Daniel 5:23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:​
     
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Again, in MY opinion, Lucifer is the king of Babylon, with my thinking its Belshazzar. You are entitled to believe whatever you please, but I will stick with the king of Babylon, Belshazzar.

    "Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering."[Isaiah 14:11b] This is not indicative of a pre-fallen Satan, but the Babylonian king becoming worm-food when he died.
     
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  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    No?

    Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?​

    I am not entitled to my opinion (2 Peter 1:20; Genesis 40:8, etc) and neither are you. The idea that I am entitled to my opinion is unscriptural, as is your statement.

    Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​
     
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    All I am saying is this...you seem to want to find a type in everything you read. I used to be that way as well. I agree that there is allegorical language used in the bible, but not everything we read needs to be interpreted through an allegorical lens.

    And as I previously stated..."Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering."[Isaiah 14:11b] This is not indicative of a pre-fallen Satan, but the Babylonian king becoming worm-food when he died.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    My take is that while the King was in mind of the writer, the Lord also intended that to reveal to us satan himself, as the behavior and attempt of the earth King would tell us why satan fell, due to his pride and wanting to be like God...
     
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  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    <---------------->
     
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