Featured Isaiah on the "Free Will" of the Unregenerate Man

That is not what most Calvinists here call regeneration, most Calvinists here call regeneration being born again, being quickened, being spiritually alive. This is impossible before faith, because until a person believes they remain spiritually dead in all their trespasses and sins. No one can be regenerated (alive again) until they first believe.

It is true that no one can be saved unless they are enlightened and convicted by the word of God, but this is not regeneration.

 

Winman, I cannot speak for the Calvinists on this board, but historically Calvinists believe that regeneration is the illumination (being quickened) of the heart just prior to faith. This was the position, not only of John Calvin, but also of John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, and John L. Dagg. The reason they believed that had to do with the sinfulness of man and his total inability to accept the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14). Spurgeon believed that the quickening of the heart (regeneration) was followed almost instantaneously by justification by faith (being made and declared righteous). The two are so inexorably linked that it does not pay to dwell too much on their separate function in the ordo salutis (order of salvation).

I do understand that many of the non-Calvinists on this board do not believe in total inability. I am fine with that. While I am not expecting any of them to change their mind, it would be to my great satisfaction to know that they understand the motivation behind the doctrine; that motivation being that our great God receives all the glory for the entirety of salvation.

 

And your view is error as well. Illumination is not quickening. To be quickened means to be made spiritually alive.

Calvinists simply cannot grasp that it is impossible to be spritually alive UNTIL your sins are forgiven. It is our sin that causes us to be spiritually dead, the wages of sin is death. No man can possibly be spiritually alive until they first believe and all their sins are forgiven. The scriptures actually show this.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This verse shows exactly what quickened means, it means to be made alive again when a person is forgiven all their sins. And no man is forgiven their sins (justified) until they first believe.

The word "regeneration" actually refutes Original Sin, as it means to be made alive AGAIN. If a person is born dead in sins as many teach, they would be generated, not REgenerated.

Calvinism redefines many scriptural words to mean something other than their true definition.

 

Hey, we both believe the other is in error. No problem. What I won't do is participate in the vitriol that often accompanies these differences of opinion.

Blessings.

P.S. Not that you have engaged in such behavior. It is just that many of these discussions go there and I will back out before they do.

 

How can an unsaved person NOT seek after God? I agree that God must initiate before we can respond, but we all were unsaved until we were placed in Christ. We were all lost, in a state of reprobation until God draws us to Himself. Now, let me address Romans 3 that you have used to support your claim:

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Now, let us back up a few verses and get to what Apostle Paul was talking about, or rather, whom he was talking about.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?


Apostle paul was talking about the Jews who thought that just by being born an ethnic Jew, they had God's righteousness.



Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Right here is where Paul is describing the self-righteous Jew. They wanted nothing to do with Jesus then, or now(the devout Jews that is). Paul is talking solely about the Jews here. They still hold to the Law as their authority, and not Jesus, and what He did upon the cross that ushered in the Grace Covenant.

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I agree with you on this(that some do get their knickers in a twist, and I guess I do sometimes,LOL). I just don't see how anyone can be regenerated/new birthed/quickened/made alive, and yet later on believe.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


When you believe, you are saved, and not before. I am afraid that salvation is a one time event that takes place when one exercises their God-given faith, and then placed in Christ.

I agree with this mostly, except that I believe salvation is NOT a process, but a one time event, when we are placed in Christ.

We are dead until we are placed in Christ. We are in a state of condemnation until we are justified. We are not justified w/o faith. We have no life unless we eat of His flesh and drink of His blood. This is what gives us life, eating His flesh, and drinking His blood(John 6).

I agree with this right here.

Can't say that I disagree with this, either.

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We have shown you repeatedly that this is not true. We have shown you numerous Scriptures that show that regeneration both MUST and DOES precede faith.

Why you contend that this is not possible having been shown otherwise repeatedly is beyond me.

 

You have NEVER shown it, there is not one verse in all of scripture that says a man is spiritually alive before he believes, but there are numerous verses that all show a man has "life" after he believes.

How can a man be alive before he believes? Until you believe you are dead in sins? We are justified by faith? Your view is utterly illogical.

But what is worse, much worse, is your view denies Christ. You believe a person has life outside of Christ, before believing on him and being baptized into his body. You have written in the past that a person can be regenerated a "long time" before being saved. This would be a person who has life a long time before believing on Jesus. It is life outside of Jesus. Tremendous error!

In Calvinism, it is not Jesus that gives you life, it is the Father.

 

You have NEVER shown it, there is not one verse in all of scripture that says a man is spiritually alive before he believes, but there are numerous verses that all show a man has "life" after he believes.

How can a man be alive before he believes? Until you believe you are dead in sins. We are justified by faith. Your view is utterly illogical.

But what is worse, much worse, is your view denies Christ. You believe a person has life outside of Christ, before believing on him and being baptized into his body. You have written in the past that a person can be regenerated a "long time" before being saved. This would be a person who has life a long time before believing on Jesus. It is life outside of Jesus. Tremendous error!

In Calvinism, it is not Jesus that gives you life, it is the Father.

 

This is what you say EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I show it. You disappear or complain about the posts being too long and ignore them.

Then you pop up later on and claim it's impossible.

Then I pop in and say, "We have shown you the Scriptures that prove that regeneration MUST and DOES precede faith."

And then, like CLOCKWORK you say the EXACT same thing- "You have NEVER shown... there is not ONE SINGLE VERSE... but there are MANY verses that show..."

Not only am I going to repost the posts where I've shown you this before, but I'm going to see if I can find YOUR post where you said almost the exact same thing you say above.

It's hilarious!

Baseless hyperbole. This is more proof that you don't know beans from apple butter about what Calvinists REALLY believe and that you just constantly attack false caricatures- which is what IFB's are KNOWN to do.

 

The Bible teaches that regeneration MUST and DOES precede faith.
Let’s begin with MUST:

Romans 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnal mind is the ONLY mind that the unregenerate man has. And it is enmity with God. It is NOT SUBJECT to the law of God- NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
Therefore, a man must be endowed with something MORE than JUST a carnal mind in order to ever be subject to the law of God; in order to ever do anything that is not enmity against God.
So long as all a man has is a carnal mind, he CANNOT COME TO GOD; HE CANNOT BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ENEMY OF GOD and he CANNOT DO ANYTHING BUT BE DISOBEDIENT IN HIS HEART TOWARD GOD.
So, what must happen so that a man who heretofore has only ever had a carnal mind may come to God? A supernatural work must take place. Something spiritual must come to life in him if he is to come to God.
That’s why regeneration MUST precede faith.

I Corinthians 2:4
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here it is again. The natural man is all there is before the new birth. Before the new birth all a man is, is natural and carnal. As an exclusively natural man he absolutely cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. Particularly, in context here, Paul is speaking of his preaching of the Gospel when he first came to Corinth (2:1). He was saying that no man who is natural can receive or understand the Gospel.
Before a natural man can receive the Gospel he must become something MORE than just NATURAL. Something spiritual must come to life within him if he is to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

That’s why regeneration MUST precede faith.

We could literally go on and on with verses like these that illustrate the severe depravity of man which NECESSITATES something spiritual coming to life in him in order that he might turn to God. We could point out that Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 that sinners are DEAD in their trespasses and sins and concludes in verse 8 because of this that every part of salvation is a gift of God- grace and FAITH.
Why is faith a gift of God? Because people DEAD in their sins are in no shape to exercise saving faith.

This is why Philippians 2:13 says, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” God does not just enable us to DO his good pleasure. No. God also enables us to WILL to do his good pleasure. We would NEVER WILL to do his pleasure if he did not work that will IN US.
If God does do this NO DEPRAVED MAN WILL EVER SEEK AFTER GOD. God must give us the WILL to do his good please.

This is why John 1:12-13 says, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

They were not born again as any act of the human will. It was all of God. Why? Because it HAD to be. Because the carnal mind is enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN it be. Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM.
We could go on and on.

But this skimming of the surface of this first point, that regeneration MUST precede faith, will have to be sufficient for now.

Next we will show that the Bible not only demonstrates that it MUST be this way, but we will show that the Bible declares quite clearly that regeneration DOES precede faith.

 

I've shown some of the many places where the Bible clearly teaches that regeneration MUST precede faith.

Now, as promised, I will show some of the places where the Bible says plainly that regeneration DOES precede faith.

I John 5:1- Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Believing is the PRODUCT of regeneration. John is saying that believing in Christ is PROOF that you have been born of God.

That really could not be clearer. That is saying that regeneration is what makes faith possible.

Young's Literal Translation puts it this way:
Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:

Everyone who DOES believe HAS BEEN begotten of God. Very clear.

This is why John said in John 1:12-13:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The new birth is not the result of a choice springing forth from the will of the flesh or the will of man. It is a work of God that makes faith possible.

That is why Paul said in Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who showeth mercy.

And notice the tenses. v 12 says "to them that BELIEVE (present tense)..." and verse 13: " WERE (past) born".

Once again you have John in two different books declaring that the new birth (regeneration) PRECEDES faith. He said it in his Gospel and he did not change his mind over the years when he came to write his epistle. He still thought, under the inspiration of the Spirit, that regeneration precedes faith.

John says this again in chapter 3, of course, just in case there was ever any doubt what he meant.

He recorded Jesus saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is not Heaven here. It rarely is Heaven in the Scripture. Heaven is a wing of the Kingdom, it's capitol city, but it is by no means the sum of it. Jesus' ministry was about the Kingdom of God on EARTH. His first sermon began, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND." Over and over again Jesus talked about the Kingdom ON EARTH.

The Kingdom is that sphere of God's reign over his creatures who welcome him as their Lord and King. But the Kingdom is spiritual. Natural man cannot see it. The carnal mind is enmity against it. You must be born of God in order to see and enter the Kingdom.

You enter the Kingdom the moment you confess and believe that Jesus Christ is Lord believing that he has been raised from the dead. But you will NEVER do that until, as John said in I John 5:1, you HAVE BEEN born of God. THEN you can see the Kingdom. THEN you can believe it and enter in.

There are other passages that I will not take time to expound here because Van and Winman complain about having to read too much.

 

Luke, you are not using your common sense. It is impossible to be alive until you believe and your sins forgiven, faith must precede regeneration.

As far as Romans 8, look at verse 9.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No man is regenerated, no man is born again, spiritually alive or quickened until the Holy Spirit DWELLS IN YOU.

Now you simply have to search the scriptures to see when a man receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and it is ALWAYS after first believing.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that a person receives the Spirit after believing.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse directly says we receive the Spirit after believing.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul believed a person receives the Spirit after believing.

I could show you many more that all teach a person receives the Spirit after first believing. Until you believe and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, you do not belong to Jesus, you are not born again.

Your doctrine denies Jesus. You teach that a person has life before believing on Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit. It is tremendous error.

1 Jhn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Whoever has Jesus dwelling in him has life. Whoever does not have Jesus dwelling in him has not life.

Use your brain.

 

Thank you and convicted1for the correction. I agree that is what it says. I must have been brain dead when I wrote what I did on the order..

 

The word regeneration only occurs once in the Bible, in Titus 3:5. The verse says:

“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:4-5, ESV)

As this is the only Biblical usage of the word, any theory which puts regeneration before salvation, and thus, before faith (which is the condition of salvation), is operating from an un-Biblical definition. Titus makes it perfectly clear, and Spurgeon got it right: salvation and regeneration cannot be separated, and a man, being regenerated, is saved already.

As salvation and regeneration cannot be separated, the Calvinist will have to show from the Scriptures where anyone is said to have been regenerated/born again before they exercised repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. What saith the Scriptures? Does regeneration precede faith, or does faith precede regeneration?

“And he said to them, ‘Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.’” (Mark 16:15-16, ESV)

“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” (John 1:12, ESV)

“[T]hat whoever believes in him may have eternal life. ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.’” (John 3:15-16, ESV)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36, ESV)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24, ESV)

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” (John 5:39-40, ESV)

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” (John 6:51, ESV)

“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day … As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.’” (John 6:53-54, 57, ESV)

“Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.’” (John 11:25, ESV)

“ut these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, ESV)

“Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.” (Acts 13:38-39, ESV)

“And they said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (Acts 16:31, ESV)

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16, ESV)

“ecause, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” (Romans 10:9-10, ESV)

“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.” (1 Cor. 1:21, ESV)

“And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” (Heb. 11:6, ESV)

In each of these cases, faith clearly precedes salvation/regeneration/the new life in Christ. But as being regenerated or born again involves the reception of the Holy Spirit, the question must be asked: Does the Holy Spirit quicken the spiritually dead before or after they believe? Again, the Scriptures are clear:

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:38-39, ESV)

“And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 2:38, ESV)

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us–for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’– so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.” (Gal. 3:13-14, ESV)

“And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” (Gal. 4:6, ESV)

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph. 1:13-14, ESV)

As these Scriptures make perfectly clear, receiving the Holy Spirit comes after belief.

 

You are right, it could not be any clearer that your position is false. Nothing in that verse says anything remotely close to what you have said. Nothing divides regeneration from salvation. You have made it clear that you are reading into scripture what is not there. It does say that those who are born again will and do believe in Jesus and the Father. Trying to pull anything else out of that passage is to do violence tot he text and add to the Word of God. Regeneration making faith possible is not even in view in this passage.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

What about the 20+ other verses he listed that DO mention faith, repentance, belief, etc.?