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It is as it was....or was it?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Spirit and Truth, Mar 10, 2004.

  1. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    One of the things that troubled me most about this movie, [ forgetting about all the error, mysticism, and catholic doctrine] is the fact that in the theatre, there were a lot of people, most of them women, who were looking at the image of "Jesus" created by Mel Gibson as they were saying "Thank you Jesus", "Oh my Jesus", and "Praise you Jesus". This troubles me, because MY Jesus, the Jesus of the Scriptures, is seated on High, at the Right Hand of the Father, who has been resurrected from the dead so that all who believe in HIM could have eternal life, who is now currently intercessing for us all as I write, who is shining in all of His Glory, and doing quite well. So who is this "icon" of a weak, frightened and shaking "Jesus", who laid on the ground shaking while the "she" devil stood over him and taunted him, who needed "strength" from his mother, and "encouragement" from simon to finish his walk to the cross? My Jesus is the Mighty Lion of Judah, and is fearless, and who took with authority, the keys to death and hell. He did not ask politely and sheepishly for them. I do not know who this two dimensional "Icon" is, but he looks nothing like my King and Lord. We all have been adequately warned about creating likenesses of the Godhead, and about mysticism. If someone bows before a large crucifix with a dead "Jesus" hanging on it , or a statue, or an "icon", who is getting the worship? Something to think about.


    Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
     
  2. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    "Whom having not seen, we love"

    We are to love Him--sight unseen---I just don't need an icon to help me see who I need to see by faith!
     
  3. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    Actually I don'think an actor in a Jesus movie would be defined as a "Icon" in the sense that term is used. I don't believe anyone seeing a movie believed Jim Cavesial was Jesus but the story reminded them of the suffering Jesus endured.

    There is no General prohibition in Scripture against images. There is a specific prohibition against making images to worship. In Numbers 21 Moses was commanded to make a Icon of Christ of which we might call the first crucifix in the Brazen serpent. Of course the Brazen serpent is a theological represention of what Christ would endure for us on the Cross. Eastern Orthodoxy probably has the most correct view of Images than Protestants or Catholics. In Eastern Christianity they are made in a way to tell a story or a theological truth. Orthodox even say that a Icon is a writing and not a painting. Theological truth is espoused in art in the East.

    In the end no one believes that images of Christ are images of Him literally but are and should espouse a theological truth in artwork just as the brazen serpent and the mercy seat in the Old Testament espoused theological truths.
     
  4. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Kiffin:

    Actually I don'think an actor in a Jesus movie would be defined as a "Icon" in the sense that term is used. I don't believe anyone seeing a movie believed Jim Cavesial was Jesus but the story reminded them of the suffering Jesus endured.

    S&T:

    Once again, when they were saying these prayers, while staring at the celluloid image of the "weak" Jesus which was in their mind, who was receiving the praise?

    Kiffin:

    Eastern Orthodoxy probably has the most correct view of Images than Protestants or Catholics. In Eastern Christianity they are made in a way to tell a story or a theological truth. Orthodox even say that a Icon is a writing and not a painting. Theological truth is espoused in art in the East.

    S&T:

    I noticed that you had an "Icon" posted on your profile. To each his own. What is a Liturgical Baptist ?

    Deu 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.


    Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
     
  5. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    I don't know what was on their minds nor in their hearts and neither do you.

    Liturgical Baptists believe the best and most proper form of worship is liturgical. That is another discussion however.

    Then be sure to burn your family album, driver's license. Let us also tear down Mt. Rushmore, Iwo Jima Memorial. Get rid of GI Joe's etc [​IMG] I think the Amish are the only ones to be consistent on this.

    What God prohibited was making of idols to worship. God did not violate His own law by calling for cherubuim and the Bronze Serpent to be made.

    There is great Controversy over Images in worship.Why is God angered about the Golden calf, images of Baal, Ashoroth, Molech and orders
    their destruction. On the other hand we see that God authorized the building of images such as the Cherubuim that were in the Holy of Holies, the Bronze serpent and there were images in Solomon's palace.

    Why Did God Permit certain Images and not others?

    The New American Standard and Amplified Bible does a better job of getting this across because they are more literal,

    Ex 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. (NASB)

    Lev 19:4 'Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves molten gods; I am the LORD your God.(NASB)


    Lev 26:1 'You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God. (NASB)



    Ex 20:4 You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it]or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;(Amplified Bible)

    Deuteronomy 6:15 Beware lest you become corrupt by making for yourselves [to worship] a graven image in the form of any figure, the
    likeness of male or female (Amplified Bible)



    The emphasis is making such images to worship. If we take a total prohibition against images then God violated his own commandments plus even pictures of ourselves and our families are forbidden. What God is emphasizing is that to make any image for worship is forbidden,

    NOT the making of images in of themselves.


    There were 2 Images or Representations of God made in scripture. One was acceptable. The other was a abomination.


    Exodus 32:1-8 THE GOLDEN CALF
    1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him." 2 Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives,
    your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4
    He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."
    5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD ." 6 So the
    next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and
    drink and got up to indulge in revelry.
    7 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been
    quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O
    Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.' (NIV)



    Some things to note here

    1. The people ask Aaron make us gods. (idolatry) The golden calf many believe was the image of the Egyptian god Apis.

    2. Aaron made it as only a representation of God but that was not the motive for the people. Aaron tried to sanitize this idol into a image of God. But the whole reason it was built was because the people cried out, make us gods. (idolatry)

    3. The people sacrificed to it and worshipped it. (idolatry)

    4. The people said "These are your gods, O israel" (idolatry)

    The golden calf was a idol made to worship and God was angered by this abomination.


    THE BRONZE SERPENT - Numbers 21:4-9 "4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!" 6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people
    and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the
    LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole;
    anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived. "(NIV)



    Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

    John 3:14-15 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life"


    The Bronze Serpent was a picture of Christ on the cross. Bronze is a symbol of judgment, the serpent is a picture of the curse. On the
    cross Christ would endure the judgment of God.

    Why was the Bronze Serpent acceptable and not the Golden calf in that both the Bronze Serpent and the Golden Calf were representations of
    God?

    Answer:The Motive.

    The Golden Calf was made to venerate and worship. The Bronze Serpent was made as a symbol of faith. It is true that during the time of the
    kings (probably that of Ahaz) that the Bronze Serpent (2 Kings 18:4) became a object of worship. Some say that means Moses should have
    destroyed it after the Numbers 21 incident. There is no reason to suggest this however since God did not order it destroyed.

    The most likely sceneraio is it was a symbol of God's grace through the reign of Moses, Joshua, Judges, early kings of Israel until the
    image was perverted to pagan use. It was in a sense, the first crucifix. It was only when people began to worship it that it was
    destroyed by Hezekiah.


    Most Protestants have the Puritan misunderstanding of the Old Testament Law on this. Luther however understood in his own writings that images were not prohited, else you have God contradicting and violating His own Law by having the Bronze serpent as well as other images made for the Tabernacle. What God prohibited is the making of Idols not images in general. The Bible does not forbid crosses, crucifixes, manger scenes, church art. It does forbid worshipping such objects. The emphasis in the Commandmaents is the worship of objects not the making of them, else God violated His own commandments in the Temple and with the brazen serpent.
     
  6. vaspers

    vaspers New Member

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    Interesting analysis Kiffin. Thanks.

    I like the Christ-Pantocrator icon from Serbian monastery, Hilandar, Mt. Athos, 13th century, have it hanging on wall above my computer...from www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPag/icons/data/icxc.gif

    I know it's not Jesus, but a representation of what some monk must have thought He may have looked like, which says more about the monk than anything else. But it is a gentle yet powerful man pictured here, with a wise, indifferent look in His eyes, not impressed with the world, not afraid of anything, not craving anything, not fooled by anything. It is about the best I've seen anywhere.

    I like www.christianmovies.com for good films.
    LATE ONE NIGHT and others are shown on INSP.
     
  7. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    Hi Vaspers, I really like that Icon and I completely agree with you. I have it in my prayer room at home. :cool:

    [​IMG]
     
  8. vaspers

    vaspers New Member

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    Poor vaspers. Everybody starting to agree with vaspers on nearly every post he make, no matter how hard he try to be controversial and alarming and JohntheBaptisty...

    ...vaspers feel like failure...loser...mediocre...mainstreamy...alas!

    poor poor vaspers...what can vaspers do now?????


    :( :eek: [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  9. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Kiffin,

    Thanks for the lengthy explanation. People , in fact have turned this film into an idol of worship, which has been my point all along. If you speak against this film you will be told a number of things. They are "You must be an atheist", "you must be Jewish", "You are preaching against the gospel", 'you're against Christ", "you do not have the spirit of God in you", "This movie is biblical, and you do not know the bible", and many more that I have heard . When Mel's hand drew the line in the sand, it was quite symbolic of the division that this movie has created. Many are now starting to speak out on this film, and in the end, it will be interesting to see where everyone ends up. I have chosen my side, and that is where I will be staying.
     
  10. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Let's take a look at the opening scene in the "Passion" movie:

    1) It starts out with "Jesus" praying in the garden in "Aramaic", but unfortunately someone forgot to put in the subtitles, so unless you are one of the very small percentage of the people in the world who can understand the language that they called "Aramaic", which was a combination of Biblical Aramaic, Hebrew, and some late Aramaic, you do not know what is being said. This was originally touted as being the language that Jesus spoke, but the translator for the movie later modified that statement, because no one is exactly sure what dialect Jesus spoke or how it would have sounded. One Aramaic expert viewed the film and only understood sixty percent of the language. Isn't there something in scripture about an unknown tongue and interpretation? Many would say this does not apply to a theatre enviroment, but at the one showing that I was at, the theatre was full of church people. Something to consider.

    2) "Jesus" tells the apostles that he does not want the others to see him like this while he is acting afraid. The apostles even comment "What's wrong with him?" "He seems afraid". This is not scriptural, however, it is "mystical". Then he says "Hear me father...rise up and defend me...save me from the traps they have set". Not scriptural, but once again "mystical". Was Jesus fearful? He is God, He is the Alpha and the Omega, He knows the beginning and the end, He knew He would have to suffer for the sin of the world and accepted it willingly out of love.He could have called down twelve legions of angels. There were no suprises here, and He was not fearful. This is a lie of the enemy, and goes AGAINST scripture.

    3) The "she" devil appears. Should we address her as the "mother" of lies? She taunts "Jesus" telling him that no one can take on the sin of the world as he stands fearful in the garden. He lies on the ground before her with his face buried in the ground while she continues to taunt him by asking "Who is your father" and "Who are you?" Of couse, anyone who reads the Bible is aware that this is not a "Biblical" account, but a "mystical" one. The Bible states that an angel came to Him to strengthen Him. He then gets up and stomps on the serpent and the whole crowd cheers, not realizing that they have just been fed nothing but lies for the last ten minutes.

    4) Judas then approaches "Jesus" in the garden, and the titles say "Hail Rabbi", but that is not what is being spoken, as the Aramaic word for rabbi [rabboni] was not said by the actor.[I did not hear it]

    5] There is a scuffle in the garden, which is not recorded in scripture, "Jesus" heals the ear of the soldier, which is recorded in scripture [ finally something ]

    6) They start to beat "Jesus" in the garden [not scriptural] they throw him over the side of a bridge and he faces Judas [not scriptural]and then Judas is taunted by a demon [not scriptural] The scripture tells us that the devil entered *into* him at the last supper. By the time he gets before the sanhedrin he is already beat to a pulp. [not scriptural]

    If anyone would like to discuss this further, I suggest that you open your Bible and check out all of my above statements first. You may want to analyze how much of the first scene was "Biblical" in content. According to God's standard, error sprinkled with truth, is not His Truth at all. The "Biblical" coffee is brewing, and the "leadership" that endorsed this movie need to take a whiff.
     
  11. MalkyEL

    MalkyEL Guest

    S&T wrote:

    Correct you are Malky El , and what a splendid job you did in your presentation . Welcome to the board. I have a serious question for you . Have you ever considered changing you screen name from Malky El to Malkye Elahh in honor of the "Aramaic" spoken in the passion movie? just kidding ....

    MalkyEL: Thanks for the "warm" welcome, coffee included [​IMG] ! Am giving "serious" consideration to changing my name to the Aramaic version, at least for the Passion threads - however; my question is this: will it give, what is now lacking in, credibility to the movie? - perhaps I should go with the latin instead [​IMG] ?????
     
  12. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Sorry guys, but we have locked the ability to change screen names.

    Diane
     
  13. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Thanks for the information Diane. I was wondering, since you have kind of been one of my detractors on other threads, if maybe I could offer a "peace offering". How about if you pull up a chair, and have a cup of this fresh brewed "coffee' with me, and maybe we can discuss my above post, and maybe even dissect some other scenes from the movie historically, scripturally, and even linguistically so we can get to the bottom of this, and find out what the Magna Veritas is. What do ya think?
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Malkye Elahh questioned :

    perhaps I should go with the latin instead ?????

    S&T:

    I can understand why you might consider it, since the movie has now established latin as the "holy" language. They even had "Jesus" speaking it to pilate in one part of the film although the language of commerce historically was Greek. My latin is not that good, but the word for king is Rex [ Mel had that right on his sign that hung above the cross, although he omitted the line of Greek ] and God is Dio. Get creative.
     
  15. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    I don't drink coffee and I'm not interested in what you have to say.
    It's a MOVIE.
    Diane
     
  16. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Diane:

    I don't drink coffee and I'm not interested in what you have to say. It's a MOVIE.

    S&T:

    You forgot to put heretical in front of movie. ;)
     
  17. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    S&T errantly stated earlier:

    My latin is not that good, but the word for king is Rex [ Mel had that right on his sign that hung above the cross, although he omitted the line of Greek ] and God is Dio. Get creative.

    S&T:

    I had crosstalk between Italian and Latin...sorry.

    Dee [Vocative] Deus [Nominative] Dei [Genitive] Deo [Dative] Deum [Accusive]
     
  18. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Diane:

    I don't drink coffee and I'm not interested in what you have to say. It's a MOVIE.

    S&T:

    Just a movie you say. Maybe you should read this article:


    "'The Passion' - for Its Author, Is a Mass"

    http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=49259


    And you may also want to read this one:


    "Passion" Star Caviezel Has a Papal Audience

    http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=50674


    S&T:

    If I am not mistaken, this is the official news agency of Rome and the pope. This is their main page. Have a look.

    http://www.zenit.org/english/


    The Truth will make you free.

    [ March 16, 2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Spirit and Truth ]
     
  19. vaspers

    vaspers New Member

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    I thot The Passion was more than a movie.

    I thot it was "the greatest evangelical tool of the last 2000 years."

    I thot it was "exactly the way it happened."

    I thot it was "based on the Bible, with nothing added or subtracted" (except worthy treatment of Resurrection and Ascension and Pentecost)."

    I thot it was a "great way to get people talking about Jesus, since the churches do such a poor job of this."

    Yeah, it IS just a Hellywood movie after all, funding a fringe cult church.

    No big deal. Might as well move on to new topic.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] :cool: :cool: [​IMG]
     
  20. Karen

    Karen Active Member

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    Dear vaspers,
    If you got any of that from any of my posts, you misread them. [​IMG]
    It is difficult to have a conversation, when you do not address what the people on the thread are actually saying, but find something somewhere else they did not say. And keep asking them to respond to that instead of what they did say.

    Karen
     
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