It's JUDGMENT TIME!!

Sorry Claudia, I failed to see that you had already posted that verse.

 

JJ: Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I might take a stab at this with you Claudia. First, no one, according to what I have read, has stated anything close to salvation by works. All Paul is saying is that indeed salvation is a plan of God, not a plan of ourselves. We do not earn salvation by our works. Our works are always thought of in the sense of not without which, not that for the sake of. Let me illustrate.

A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just, and attitudes are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on their account. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’ in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’) of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

Again, the work I am referring to in salvation that we must do in order to be saved is none other than to repent. It is not meritorous in nature, but again thought of in the sense of not without which, just as in the illustration.

 

You understand the confusion That's funny.

You, Brother Bob and Gekko are the ones saying that if you don't keep the commandments a person isn't saved, which is in direct violation of Scripture and you say I'm the one confused.

I ready the above post and let me comment on a couple of things.

First of all the author thinks your soul is already saved which is Biblically untrue. Just read James 1:21, I Peter 1:9 and Hebrews 10:39.

Secondly repentence has absolutely nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith. If it does then why doesn't it say that you are saved by grace through faith and repentence. If it needed to be included it certainly could have, but it is not. I honestly don't understand why you all keep choosing to ingore this clear teaching.

That's exactly what you all are preaching. Keep the commandments or you are not saved. That is exactly what this author says shouldn't be, yet that's exactly what you do? I guess I am confused. You are doing exactly what your teacher tells you not to do.

Again this is exactly what you three preach. Prove by keeping the commandments that you are saved. If you don't keep them then you are not saved.

Wow that's what I've said all along, but yet you three keep preaching against that saying keep the commandments or you're not saved.

Again that's what I've said all along. Trust in Christ and it's a done deal. Over. Done with. Salvation by grace through faith is not a process. It's a one-time event. When you accept Christ as Savior, that His death and shed blood paid the price for your sin you are in possession of salvation by grace through faith. Done. End of story. The next breat you take is a different subject, becuase salvation is never thought of again, becuase it's not a process.

Yet you three keep saying you have to keep the commandments and that if you don't over the 30, 40, 50, 60 or however many years you live you aren't saved. It's not a process people it's a one-time event.

All I can say is wow.

 

Of course they don't say it's by works becuase they know that works is in direct violation of Scripture, but then in the same breath they save if you don't keep the commandments you aren't saved. That is salvation by works no matter what kind of spin you want to put on it and no matter how hard you try to convince yourself or how much you believe. That is a works salvation.

Then why keep saying that a person that doesn't keep the commandments isn't saved? That's saying a person if not earns their salvation certainly keeps their salvation by works. Either way you spin it they are both unBiblical.

Here's the problem with your story. See Christ died for us while we were yet sinners. So the pardon was offered while we still had the bad attitude, so your story doesn't mesh with Scripture.

Now will a person realize that they are a sinner before salvation...yes...But they can't even grasp the concept of changing their mind until their spirit has been made alive, because only at that point can they be taught spiritual truth.

Spiritually dead men can't understand spiritual matters. Now can they be repentant of sin as soon as they are saved...sure that is possible, but it's not required of salvation. That is plain to see in Ephesians. How are we saved? By grace through faith. It doesn't say faith and repentence. It just says faith? Again why is that so difficult to see?

Acts 16:30-31 - He asks what must I do to be saved? What is the direct response to that direct question? Believe. Where's the repentence? If that is critical to salvation why didn't the Spirit guide Luke to write believe and repent? I know. Becuase repentence comes after being made alive spiritually.

HP you can continue to believe the way you want to believe. I will believe the clear teaching of Scripture that deals explicity with salvation by grace and it comes through faith/believing and nothing else.

Why do you want to take the simplest message in the world (a message so simple a child can understand it) and make it difficult?

 

Perhaps someone can explain the necessity for works when tied in with Acts 16:31. The question is, "What must I do to be saved?" The answer is:

"Believe (aorist; puntiliar action) on the Lord Jesus and you will (indicative; no doubt about it) be saved."

What if you believe, and then don't follow with good works? Or, perhaps, you follow for a while and then cease?

Where does this verse say anything about having to follow the law?

Please explain this contradiction and why it's acceptable to have a contradiction in the Bible.

 

HOG: Please explain this contradiction and why it's acceptable to have a contradiction in the Bible.

HP: You have the book of James. What does God say through the Apostle James? Scripture does not contradict itself. If you think it does, you have either erred as a theologian or a philosopher. Our duty is search out the Scriptures, utilizing every source of truth God gives to man, and seek to harmonize the seeming contradictions. We may have many uncertainties in our theology, but we should have no absurdities. How do you harmonize James with your ‘believe only’ view. He tells us that faith without works is dead being alone as I recall. You say you have faith, but do you have works to serve as the evidence to the world and God that indeed you are of the faith? I am not in any way suggesting or implying that you do not. Many men, even some with twisted theology, have demonstrated a better heart than head. I hope I demonstrate a better heart than head. Right theology never saved anyone.

 

I've never said there's a contradiction. All these people who say that works are required for salvation (to earn it, keep it, or prove it) create a contradiction with several passages, most strongly Acts 16:31. I want them to explain it.

Oh, and the book of James says that it's about the salvation of the soul. That's an easy one to show there's no contradiction. The salvation of the soul is dependent upon works.

 

J.Jump said "You, Brother Bob and Gekko are the ones saying that if you don't keep the commandments a person isn't saved,"

i said that? i dont remember saying that at all...

like i've said before - we CAN tell if they are walking in the spirit or not. no?

 

J.Jump said "Can you provide Scripture that says the law is spiritual only and is not considered a work? Can you provide Scripture that says the law is written on our hearts. Can you give Scripture that says keeping the law is spiritual and not a work?"

Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

-----
to clarify - i never said that the law is not work - i simply questioned it.
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romans 2:15d "which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; in the day when God dshall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

im too tired right now to do any more searching for the other ones... lol.

 

Ecclesiastes 12

6": Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

"7": Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

"8": Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.


When we die the Spirit of life goes back to God who gave it. ( I give you your breath and you live, I take it and you die.)
The body goes back to Mother earth. ( For from dust thou art and unto dust thou shall return.)

Why twist it so out of shape???

 

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Yeah it get's awfully hard to explain unBiblical truths when you boil it right down to the nitty gritty. Works people try to say the right things, but in the end they tie works with grace and that is a clear contradiction of the Bible that you all just continue to choose to ignore, or just try to dance around.

Ah now we get to the root. I want to believe what I want to believe. Well as I have said many many times it doesn't matter what you believe, what I believe, what Gekko believes, what Brother Bob believes or what Joe Blow believes. It only matters what the Bible says. And you are contradicting the clear teaching of the Bible. Grace through faith NOT OF WORKS. NOT OF WORKS. NOT OF WORKS.

How can that be any more plain. If something else in the Bible says works then you are misinterpreting it or something, becuase CLEARLY grace is through faith and not of works.

Amen to that. That's why I don't understand why you all are trying to complicate things. If you believe you are saved. Period. End of discussion.

While I disagree with you on the absolute of that statement, I would tend to agree with you that is what happens for most believers if not all believers at the time they are saved. But there is no guarantee that they will continue with that attitude. And the Bible clearly shows that most will not. Broad is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life. That was written to saved people.

Again as been said several times the book of James does NOT have a context of salvation by grace through faith. That book was written to folks that had already been saved. And again if works are mentioned it clearly can't be in connection with grace, becuase it is a violation of Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31. You can dance around that all you want to put that is the plain Truth of the matter.

You do not need accusing, becuase you have painted your own picture quite well.

That's absurd. I have never said that someone allowing the flesh to rule their life is okay. We are clearly commanded to die to self on a moment by moment basis. But where you say it is automatic that one will do that, the Bible says it is a choice that is not automatic.

Again another absurdity. I know God has called me to be His servant. So whatever He wants to do with me and my life it is His. And I pray that I will be obedient to His calling.

Oh I completely understand what you are saying. What I don't understand is how you can keep believing it when it has been shown to you over and over how your belief system clearly contradicts clear teaching of the Bible.

Again I know that I am to keep God's commandments and I try to die to self every day, sometimes it is a moment by moment choice to allow the Spirit to do those things through me, becuase I am incapable and He has to do it through me.

That is absolutely false. I don't want a religion at all. I want to know the God of all gods, the Lord of lords and the King of kings.

Religion is worthless.

No charade going on here. If you are found obedient and worthy then you will get the crown. If you are found rebellious and unworthy then you will be disciplined for it, but your eternal destiny is never in question because that is a one-time event.

 

There is the constant separation being suggested between the soul and the spirit of man. Show us from Scripture this separation is definable to man in terms utilized by some on this list. Don’t tell us what you think, define your terms by Scripture.

 

It is intimated in:

1 Thessolonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As for "strict" definitions and delineations, I personally know of none...

If you'd like to read my 'working hypothesis' you can do so at: http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/StirUpTheGift.htm

Just disregard the 'Pentecostal' Parts.

SMM

 

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Here we see the soul and spirit divided.

I Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we see that man has three parts. And it says "may" God sanctify you entirely, which says we are not yet. There's a part of us that is not sanctified yet. We know our spirit's are saved at the moment of salvation by grace through faith. So that leaves our soul and body in an unsaved state.

How do we know that our souls are unsaved? Becuase James 1:21, I Peter 1:21 and Hebrews 10:39 tell us that is so.

I Cor. 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Here is also another example that our soul is not saved yet, because the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit. Why is that? Because they are spiritually appraised.

Natural is a root word of soul. Anyone that is living according to the flesh/soul will not understand spiritual things if they have been saved.

If they haven't been saved then they can't understand them because they are spiritually dead.

1Pe 2:11 - Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

Why are fleshly lusts at war with our soul? Because our soul hasn't been saved yet and we must die to self and be obedient to the Word in order for our souls to be saved.

So if we allow the flesh to win then our souls will not be saved. If we allow the Spirit to win then our souls will be saved.

If a man loses his life now he will find it in the coming age. If a man finds his life now he will lose it in the coming age. The word for life is "soul." If you live the way you want to now then you will not experience life in the next age. But if you die to self now then you will experience life in the next age.

 

SMM: As for "strict" definitions and delineations, I personally know of none.

HP: Finally, a little refreshing honesty. If one was going to try and define the two terms understandably and sensibly, where might you turn for help if not clearly defined in Scripture?