It's not just the SBC we are after..muwhahahahaha

Well, Brother Bob, I hear what you are saying and I'm sure we mostly agree.

I will say this, though. The IFB movement is much, much larger than it was when I was in college. There are over 10,000 IFB churches nowadays by a consdervative estimate. (Our board alone has 6000 churches supporting our missionaries, and there are much bigger boards.) So some fragmentation and fussing among ourselves is completely to be espected--though of course not right. I'm always cautious about generalizing about IFB churches. There are many varieties, many different fellowships.

 

I did not mean it to be demeaning and I'm sorry you took it that way. What I meant is that it is temporary, as the very term "interim" means. Therefore an interim pastor ought to approach things quite differently than a permanent pastor. He is going to leave after awhile, so if he makes a mess he can walk away, but the poor church people can't.

Baptizing is good for an interim pastor to do, as is the Lord's supper. Teaching the Word of God is good.

Reforming their statement of faith? Trying to change their doctrine? Absolutely wrong for an interim pastor, who is not going to stick around to help them through the church split such an activity almost invariably causes.

I find many things light hearted and funny. I love jokes and funny stories. But I don't find anything funny whatsoever about a crusading Calvinist threatening churches, even in jest. When are you crusading Calvinists going to start your own churches instead of trying to change other churches?

Tell me, what is the name of the Reformed Baptist mission board if it exists? Do you know any Reformed Baptist missionaries personally? Do you support any? If not, you are failing to obey the Great Commission. I have a dear friend who is a Calvinist who would never dream of following your practices. He supports us on the mission field quite substantially and has Japanese tracts sent over every year. I suggest you follow his lead and obey Christ's final command--which was not, "Thou shalt make Calvinists of all."

Too bad you put an end to altar calls, a good practice begun by Calvinists (not by Finney as Calvinist legend has it).

Recognize here that this is not an anti-Calvinist post. It is a post opposing crusading Calvinism--and there is a great difference.

 

Apologize for my actions? What actions? And I asked you to apologize for nothing.

As a child I lived through an absolutely horrible church split when the church kicked out my pastor-father. It virtually destroyed my brother's life and affects our family to this day. I despise church splits. If you caused a church split by your efforts to change a church's doctrine in three short months as interim, I have no respect for you. If the church happily changed and is the better for your efforts, fine. Please tell me which happened. In my experience efforts such as your usually splits the church.

I've known reformed Baptists since you were a little child and I was a grown preacher. I'm still not impressed with most of them.

Excellent. I see they have several missionaries. I've wondered about this for a long time. There have been no Reformed Baptist missionaries in Japan for many years.

I agree that there is an unhealthy tendency among many IFB's (and others) to emphasize numbers. I used to. However, I came to a place in my life where I saw that the chief end of man is to glorify God--thanks in large part to some wise words by our IFB mission director. So you will find nowhere in my newsletters any glorying in numbers.

Having said that, the last command of Christ was the Great Commission. No one can be a good Christian who ignores it.

H. Leon McBeth writes, "The Separates apparently helped popularize what is now known as the 'evangelistic invitation.'" He then quotes Rober I. Devin (A History of Grassy Creek Baptist Church, p. 69): "At the close of the sermon, the minister would come down from the pulpit and while singing a suitable hymn would go around among the brethren shaking hands. The hymn being sung, he would then extend an invitation to such persons as felt themselves poor guilty sinners, and were anxiously inquiring the way of salvation, to come forward and kneel near the stand." McBeth then writes, "The separates thus devised a method of encouraging on-the-spot religious decisions, to the singing of a hymn, well before the revivals of Charles G. Finney, who is often credited with inventing the invitation" (The Baptist Heritage, p. 231)

You're not about promoting Calvinism? My observation says that is exactly what you are about on the BB. You have started thread after thread promoting specifically Calvinist doctrine!

 

"What you described is not an alter call".My dear brother you have just done what calvinists seem to have a great ability to do. You have taken what anybody else would see as an alter call and dismissed it out of hand .

Just as a note I have read"The Fundamentals " edited by R.A. Torrey, cover to cover.

I have seen so many times on this board calvinists giving the "only interpretation" of scripture".We have several calvinists on the board that are so dogmatic and aggressive they make you want to puke.I also find most calvinists have not read "The Institutes" by Calvin I have and I am no calvinist,I am also not an arminian. What I am is a Bible believing Christian first and foremost and a Baptist second.

As you are doing here as you discuss with others on this thread is taking yourself and calvinism as the final authority on all matters. You will not be taken seriously when you discuss things in this manner.

I am sorry that little IFB church disbanded but it does'nt speak highly of your work there. You did'nt seem to bring anybody together and it does'nt seem that you helped build up the body of Christ there.
I do sense though from reading your posts over time that you are a fundamentalist in belief. What we need to do in times like these is discover our commonalities and see what work we can do together from there.All of this bickering and fighting leads us no where. Men will know we are Christians because we show love for one another.raying:

 

I would accept what that preacher did in his church as a form of an alter call.I am sure others would see it that way also.He went down into the crowd and grasped them by the hand and invited them down to the alter.
Please do not see my observation of your work at that IFB church as judgemental, it was just that, an observation. Anybody can be an armchair quarterback. So I apologize if I came across as judgemental and harsh.
I only mention reading the "Institutes" because most Calvinists I run into first have'nt read Him are are pretty far to the right of his teachings while crying out his name. At the same time I find that most who claim to be Arminian are really wesleyan which far to the left of Arminius and today many are far to the left of Wesley.When I finish my other reading projects I will read Arminius. From my understanding of him he was a 3 point Calvinist on the TULIP scale and agreed with Calvin on many other things.
I agree the Bible is the Word of God and The Rule of Faith.
Just for the record I do not put you into that group of dogmatic Calvinists. I find your approach to be kind and caring which I respect and admire.You generally stick to your guns but are tolerant of others. Anybody can deal with and respect those actions.Again we need to concentrate on our similarities and commonalities and love one another as we should.raying:

 

Yeah.:thumbs:

 

Well of course it's not an apology! I didn't mean it to be an apology. I've said nothing to apologize for.

So let me get this straight. In that little Baptist church there were priests selling indulgences, other priests being immoral, and a pope that wouldn't let the people read the Bible. Oh, yes, and they didn't know how to get saved, "justification by faith alone." So you decided it needed to be "reformed" in the Martin Luther way. Do I have that right? And then you "reformed" it out of existence.

I thought it was a good rejoinder to your supercilious assumption of my ignorance. Still think so.

Nope. Dispensational.

Hmm. Let me look at some of your threads:

"A conversation between a Calvinist and an Arminian."
"Foreknowledge, foreknown, predestined."
"Meaning of kosmos."
"It's not just the SBC we are after...."

Nope. My opinion that you are a crusading Calvinist, starting thread after thread on Calvinism, has not changed.

 

Exactly! Well said, Squire. :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

Apology?

An apology, according to the derivation of the word, is a defense of one's words or action, not an admission of wrongdoing or a request for forgiveness. To say that one is sorry that someone misunderstood is to say that he or she regrets the misunderstanding. It's not the same as the childish "Say you're sorry." It has nothing to do with throwing in the towel or giving up the argument. It appears that you misunderstood again.

BTW, methinks you are a bit too smug and condescending toward Brother John of Japan. Rational arguments are won on force of argument and logical reasoning, not casting darts at one's opponent. Personally, I don't think you advanced the case for Calvinism at all. Perhaps Calvinism would be better served if you kept silent.

 

You miss my point. My point was that I see no valid comparison between Luther's reformation and your attempt to change the doctrine of a little Baptist church into Calvinism. As for Sola Fide, did you actually read my whole post? As for personal "reform" according to the Word of God, I think it muddies the waters to compare that to Luther's version reformation. It's not a real sharp debate technique.

And of course we are certainly not Lutherans--though I dated one in high school. :smilewinkgrin: I'm almost as far from the Lutherans as I am from the Catholics. Ever tried to win a Wisconsin Lutheran to Christ? Luther only came out of the Catholic Church as far as he had to.

Sigh. Now you are condescending again. Where do you think I got my modified statement? But I'll refrain this time from showing off with big words in my objection to your condescension.

I read the kosmos thread because I'm a linguist. I didn't bother with the others. Sorry, but it is all old hat to me, warmed over coffee, lukewarm chicken soup. I'm just not interested. And if I were interested I certainly wouldn't look for more knowledge in this area from an Internet "debate" site. The level of discourse is pretty low. (Please don't take this as an insult. It is only a general statement.)

To be honest? I think these BB debates on C/A are a waste of time. Go back and read what Squire said that I agreed with. I'm always amazed at how far Internet theologians will go to prove they understand the Sovereign God and His eternal workings.

 

It wasn't condescending. It was genuine regret.

 

Thanks, Paid.

I'll probably bow out of this thread. Debating ReformedBaptist is like trying to nail jello to the wall--to hark back to old Dr. Bob Jr.--and I'm sure you remember that one better than I. :saint: