I've gotta laugh

Wow... didn't think this thread would still be going and going and going and going...

 

Okay Aaron, so what you are saying then is that the drums should have been removed rather than let certain "old white folk" find another place to worship or not worship at all.

Seems to me, that if these that you are putting the souls of "old white folk", who have probably spent their lives listening to the gospel, above the souls of "young black/hispanic folk" who maybe have never heard the gospel and would be attracted into church by the sound of the drums.

You know my parents used to teach that drums were sinful. They believed that because heathen folk used drums in ways that my parents considered sinful, that a drum couldn't possibly be used in a way that would honor God. After all, drums aren't mentioned in the Bible.

Then again, they couldn't explain why pianos and organs were okay, since they aren't mentioned in the Bible either.

Perhaps we should go back to using harps, trumpets and cymbals in service.

 

I know you weren't making fun of harps, per se, but have you ever heard one played well? They are beeeaauuutiful! And I think we would all be blessed by a service that incorporated them! I wish we used them more. Just a thought....has nothing to do with drums.


OTOH, Im steering a little different direction, but it is an interesting thought to me that so often we put our Christian liberty over our fellow Christian's feelings when it comes to what we do in our church services. If, indeed, good faithful members were leaving a church due to a change (any change) in the music philosophy, wouldn't it behoove the leadership to reconsider their changes?

I know that this thought can be taken too far, and we could wind up being unwilling to change in ANY little way, but when it is a matter of preference, and we have an entire segment of the congregation who objects that strenuously, than why do we feel as if its ok to ignore them just because they are the more conservative ones?
Honest question.

 

OK, so let me paint a scenario...

A church that has never had air conditioning decides to install it. Several of the older members get angry about that..."We've never had it before...my grammaw got along fine without it." The church leadership realize that there are people that know there is no A/C in the church, and don't come because of that reason. They know that "no A/C" is not a good reason to avoid church, but they want to remove obstacles to those people being confronted with the gospel.

What would you do?

Would you forego the A/C, and tell the outsiders, "Get used to it,"

or would you install the air conditioning and help the complainers realize that important concept, "It's not about me"?

I will concede--we don't know the whole story. And a lot of ministry is not just what you do, but how you go about doing it. I agree that we shouldn't run roughshod over people and be ugly about it. But the church is not here to simply make ourselves happy and comfortable.

Besides, I don't think we can infer that they are being "ignored because they are conservative." We don't have the information to make that determinaton. Maybe...but it may be that the leadership of this church is trying to follow God and reach out into the community they now find themselves in.

It's not about me. It's first about God, and then about reaching "them."

 

I tried the "what if" scenario argument on somebody and he replied, "I don't do what if, I do what is." It would be just as easy to paint a scenario where those poor sweltering old folks would welcome air conditioning enthusiastically. What we do know is that drums can divide and have divided, congregations.

Air-conditioning is about comfort. Drums are about worship. If they are to enhance worship for the people already there, then let's have a healthy discussion about them, with due respect to those who are culturally not attuned to them. Is it worth dividing a congregation over?

If they are to "attract" a younger audience, then we have a whole 'nother debate. What kind of younger audience. Lost yuppies? Lost teens? Saved yuppies and teens? If it's to attract lost people, then we've got a problem. Worship is not for lost people. Their presence is incidental to the primary purpose for coming together as a congregation.

I have not tried to make an argument for drums, or against them. Believers can have an honest disagreement. But we all need to plug in other considerations, such as church unity, before acting.

Tom B.

 

Hence the point I made (but not strongly enough, I think)...it's hypothetical anyway, because we're not there.

We don't know if every effort was made, in Christian love, and that these are constipated old coots--or if this was ramrodded down the throats of these helpess older saints.

I don't think the originator of said thread is one who would run roughshod over folks...but of course, she's not the only one in the church. If it's like most fellowships, there are folks who are contrarians, and folks who are rebels, and there are others that want God's will to be done, even if it's somewhere in between the two extremes.

But I still stand by the statement that we should not refrain from making changes simply because "some people are against it." If folks object, we should certainly ask them, and ourselves, why the changes should be made (and be ready for an honest answer). But objections by some should not automatically preclude changes, if the changes are needed.

 

rbell,

I understand what you are saying, and really my comments were not meant specifically about the church that started all this. Rather I was trying to be more general and discuss it as an overall idea. I find that I agree very much with what Tom Butler said about it.

 

That is apples and oranges and not a fair comparison.
There are many that believe, contrary to an issue like "A/C" that music is not amoral, but definitely a moral issue. Certain kinds of music are immoral in the worship or the Lord, and should not be used. If that is the position of some in the church, then the offence is greater than you perceive it to be.

1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

DHK,

I concede that my example was flawed. Let me go at it another way.

I can see three arguments arising from the "drums issue." Here they are:

(1) "I don't like those drums. They're too loud. Piano & organ are my style."

This is an amoral argument--one of asthetic judgement. I have no problems there at all...in fact, I would argue that church should be a place these folks can share these concerns, AS LONG AS it is done in Christian love. (This would go for the "other side" as well). I would think that this impasse would be the easiest to overcome.

(2) "Drums are the devil's instruments, and have no place in worship."

This is a moral judgement. IMO, it shows spiritual weakness on the part of the speaker, because it has absolutely no biblical basis. Should these people be loved? Of course. Should someone so spiritually immature be intimately involved in major decision-making processes? I don't think so. If folks with this opinion are in leadership, the outcome is decided, and those who wish to try something new will eventually leave.

(3) "Drums aren't evil, but they remind us of music that is."

To me, this is the grayest of the areas. Once again, I would argue those that would argue this are spiritually sensitive in this area. Should we factor that in to our discussion? Absolutely. But should we neglect to reach out to a community that might respond to this style? I see both sides here...

Gets ticklish when we have to submit to one another in Christ, doesn't it?

Obviously, my questions come with an opinion already formed: that drums are instruments--nothing more. How they are played, and who they are played for is critical.

 

The area is not as grey as you think.
I believe that either Aaron or myself can give you a fairly good Scriptural argument why drums should not be used in worship. History itself backs it up. I said in another post instruments were not used in the early churhes at all. The first instrument that was used was an organ and that didn't appear undil about 300 A.D. Percussion instruments seem to be a 20th century phenomena, just as all CCM is. I suppose it coincides with the general degenrate apostate times of our society.
DHK

 

Not too long ago, I heard a duet between the piccolo and harp at a performance of the President's Own Marine Band. It was awesome. I wish there were more harp players as good as this lady was in our Churches.

Joseph Botwinick

 

WORSHIP

 

Thank you. I appreciate that. Now if only Ransom and tinytim could follow your example. They would see that they are arguing against charicatures of my statements rather than the content of the statements. Well, I assume they would see it. I don't hold out too much hope for them based on their recent trends. (Dad blame that DHK for removing my last statement! I hope Ransom saw it before it was zapped. I had to laugh!)

Now, what's your opinion on drums in church? [/QB][/QUOTE]

As I said, I don't argue specific instruments. I argue styles. If their use doesn't violate God's standards of decency and order, I have no objections.

And I think that's what God would say if He were asked.

 

And once again, my statement had nothing to do with drums. It had to do with how the issue is being handled.

You seem to have missed it the first time I said that, so I thought I would repeat it.

 

Drums are being discussed in a different thread.

I know some people think like this, but I guess a few "brave ones" just come out and say it.</font>[/QUOTE]True dat! But I'm sure the gentleman didn't exactly mean it that way. It was a funny statement ... and hey, I needed a good laugh!