1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

James 5:16

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Revmitchell, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    41,130
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The ESV renders it:

    Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.


    The KJV renders it:

    Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


    When the words "effective" and "fervent" are taken out of the ESV passage it does in fact change the verse and its meaning. It takes out the manner in which prayer was to be done.

    Was this appropriate? How do we know?
     
  2. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,187
    Likes Received:
    129
    "effectual" and "fervent" are the equivalent of "great power" and "as it is working". So the ESV doesn't take it out. It translates it differently.

    Actually, the ESV does a better job of maintaining the word order. The words in questions were at the end of the sentence (less emphasis). But the KJV moved them towards the beginning as if that is the main thrust. So in this case, as in most cases, the ESV is better.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    6,337
    Likes Received:
    104
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Huh?:

    KJB
    The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    ESV
    The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    16,552
    Likes Received:
    2,447
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Effectual" = "ενεργουμενη" to work (effectually or fervently).

    [Edited for clarification]
     
    #4 TCassidy, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    6,337
    Likes Received:
    104
    Faith:
    Baptist
    OK, what does "Fervent" = ?
     
    #5 Jerome, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,187
    Likes Received:
    129
    They supplied it to suite the idea I suppose.

    Just to clarify, I think the "availeth much" matches "has great power" of the ESV. And the "effectual fervent" matches the "as it is working".

    I may have jumped the gun on trying to understand how the KJV translated what they did. But they still moved the Gr work ενεργουμενη to the beginning of the sentence even though it was at the end (less emphasis). The KJV has it at the beginning.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    16,552
    Likes Received:
    2,447
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Fervent and effectual are both translations of ενεργουμενη. It is a case where two English words were used to translate a single Greek word.

    Not at all unusual. In fact, in the New Testament, as many as five English words have been used to translate a single Greek word. :)
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  8. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,187
    Likes Received:
    129
    To answer the questions here: Yes it was appropriate. The ESV renders it better and more accurately. We know by examining the Greek.

    PS-Part of this is flawed unless you make the KJV the standard. The ESV didn't take anything out of the passage that was not there in the first place. Rather, we could ask why the KJV felt it necessary to amplify a simple word (where we get our word "energize") to "effectual fervent"?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    6,337
    Likes Received:
    104
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you for 'clarifying'.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    41,130
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you believe what the KJV did was inappropriate?
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    18,646
    Likes Received:
    442
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Don't tell that to Van --he will not stand for that in his novel world of translation. ;-)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,187
    Likes Received:
    129
    Only insofar as you place so much emphasis on those words so as to hold up your view that this verse and this particular translation explains "the manner in which prayer was to be done". I think the ESV renders the original more accurately than the KJV.
     
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    41,130
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hey look! A thread where no one got called any names and no one has been given a dumb rating.
     
  14. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    6,337
    Likes Received:
    104
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I just had to chuckle when I saw the "as in most cases better" ESV using "fervent" in the very next verse:

    KJB v.17
    Elias...prayed earnestly that it might not rain

    ESV v.17
    Elijah...prayed fervently that it might not rain
     
  15. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,187
    Likes Received:
    129
    Different word used. What are you chuckling about?
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,505
    Likes Received:
    88
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The effective prayer of a righteous person accomplishes much.

    As translated above the assertion says little. If a prayer accomplishes much would it not have to be effective? How about a prayer according to the will of God accomplishes much? The idea being a "righteous person" would pray in the will of God.
     
Loading...