Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry Volume II

Grace and Peace,

It would appear that Nestorianism is alive and well... to sever the unity of the Godhead and to divine Christ's Divinity from His Humanity does grave harm to the Doctrine of the Incarnation and that dignity (i.e. restoration) in which His union made with our Humanity. No wonder 'Grace is to no effect' in your soterology.

I have not doubt if we were to review the councils we might have avoided such error but history forgotten is history repeated. :tear:

 

Thank you for your kind comments which are reciprocated.

 

I pray that DHK isn’t truly such, but to read his responses it certainly looks that way. I would like to think that DHK, like myself a few years back, just isn’t very well versed in Church History, the Ecumenical Councils and all the heretical doctrines that these Ecumenical Councils had to combat (and this doesn’t mean I’m an expert, I just a layman with an appetite for learning).

Without knowing anything about Nestorian or what doctrine he was promoting, DHK ascribed to Nestorianism just to separate himself as far as he can from Orthodoxy out of fear of being labeled.

ICXC NIKA
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Rome manufactured heresies to make excuses for false councils dont cut it.

I still love the claims about the so called horrid DONATISTS, who claimed that if a man was wicked the sacraments didnt "take". Hey all this sounds like to me contrary to the teachings of 1 Timothy as to who can serve as a "bishop or pastor" is more of Rome's defenses of the wicked, this is why a Pope can be corrupt beyond belief, like the Borgia, and Rome still claims they are valid leaders.

Sadly many protestants follow these same corrupt "Church councils" and early deceivers rooted in the Alexandria cult and Origen, Eusebius, and Constantine and pals.

This is one reason I believe those churches are joining with Rome. Anabaptists who know these church councils were bunk from the beginning really should know better.

As for the whole Nestorian claims, this is just a round about way, to advance false theology, claim a strawman that someone is denying that Jesus is God, who wont use the false words that Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD.

While Jesus said this,

Luk 11:27¶And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luk 11:28
But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.


Rome and Rome's daughters present a false Mary as well, just so you all know that is NOT the humble Mary of the Bible but a false haughty Jezebel demon {the queen of heaven of Jermiah 44} showing up to demand shrines be built her in Rome's demonic apparations.

 

It looks as though you are correct Bound. A few pages back I stated that many Protestants (not all) have a heretical view of the Incarnation and even the Trinity without even knowing. In my Catechesis class we’ve spent more time discussing the Trinity and the Incarnation simply because we have Catechumens that are from varying Protestant backgrounds and all espoused a different view.

But what is interesting is that the Catechumens that are Catholic, Episcopal or Lutheran had a fairly safe concept. Those that are Baptist or Non-Denominational were sadly way off base.

Have a Blessed Nativity Season Bound!

ICXC NIKA
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Actually Catholics have a heretical view of the Incarnation given their church teaches Jesus is body, blood and divinity in millions of communion wafers while supposely being bodily in heaven? I think that goes beyond trinity into somewhere esle.

A Christian does not need councils to tell them of the trinity.

It is right in God's Word.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

Show me a Greek manuscript from before the 16th century containing those verses as you quote them.

 

Good verses to prove the trinity, Jillian. Here is Wycliffe's translation of those same verses:

1 John 5:7-8 For thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in heuene, the Fadir, the Sone, and the Hooli Goost; and these thre ben oon `And thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in erthe, the spirit, water, and blood; and these thre ben oon.

 

Matt you do not believe that God has preserved His Word? You must be a Roman Catholic or Orthodox!

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

What a lack of faith you have there.

 

Thanks standingfirminChrist, appreciate it.

 

Nope! You're wrong about that - what else might you be wrong about...

Thanks Now, instead of insulting me, perhaps you'd like to address the question raised in my last post. The manuscript, if you please...

 

Matt youre not the first Catholic Ive talked to online.

One technique Catholics have MATCHES that exactly of unbelievers, which is to question the authority of Gods Word.

All you are doing here is an form of this Matt...

Quote:
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

HATH GOD SAID?

That's what youre saying to us arent you Matt?

HATH GOD SAID...{you got the wrong manuscript, God's word really doesnt say that, the RCC wrote the Bible, ad nauseum}

 

Daughter Protestant then?

Which are you Rerformed, Lutheran or one of those Liberal Baptists around ready to swim the Tiber?

Emergent? They always take up for the Pope and diminish God's Word as well.

 

I'm still on my official break-from-arguing during Advent, but here's a comment for folks to consider, as it may be germane to the topic at hand...

When we went from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, we did not go from a monarchy to an egalitarian democracy. Jesus taught that there would indeed be positions of distinct honor in His Kingdom.

(Just something to consider)

 

Anglican, as it happens. My home church is here. I note you have once again failed to answer the question.

[reply to Jillian]

 

Now that’s a funny statement, Jillian doesn’t need a council to tell him/her what to believe, yet his/her own Independent Baptist Church adheres to a set of Baptist Distinctives to formulate a statement of faith that each member is to adhere to in order to become a member. So in essence, these distinctives and statements of faith derive from independent church councils.

So much for a Christian needing councils huh Jillian…

ICXC NIKA
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So much for logic. Just throw it out the door.
A statement of faith does not come from a council, nor has anything to do with a council. You display your ignorance with the above post. Every church needs a statement of faith to define what they believe, and to differentiate them from what other churches believe. If I am in another city and want a church to visit, I would like to know what they believe before I go there. A statement of faith would be nice to look at before I would be so unfortunate as to end up in a Charismatic church that had no statement of faith but is simply out there to deceive others.
Your posts should at least make some logical sense.

There is no such thing as "Independent Church Councils" What a lark!

 

You would like to think a lot of things. I google "Theotokos," and what do I get--a heretical view held by the Eastern Orthodox church. So who is calling the kettle black here? As I have mentioned more than once your view of this doctrine solely originates with your church--the Eastern Orthodox, and never was accepted by mainstream Christianity. That gives enough credence in and of itself to reject it. If you want to play the history card, it has just been played. And you lost.

As for Nestorian, I don't know who he is, what he believes, and I don't care. I have stated before that my beliefs come from the Bible, and that is all that matters. If you refuse to believe the Bible you will give an account for that, and sadly it will be a terrible account.

Ecumenical Councils are just that--ecumenical. There is not much good that comes out of ecumenism. I prefer the Bible.

By your own statements you seem to deny that Christ was always God. He had no mother, no Father, but was God, the Creator of the Universe, the Word who has no beginning, no ending, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. You don't believe the Bible on this account. You exalt Mary unnecessarily to the place of the mother of God, when God has no mother. This is heresy. Mary was but a vessel that God used, to bring Jesus into this world. Christ was always God. He didn't become God at birth; He always was.
Mary provided a vessel, a body for the God-man. She was used of God in a very limited way. She herself was a sinner in need of salvation.

 

But you would agree these 'ecumenical' councils got the Doctrine of the Trinity correct, right?

What one might say is that you are failing to distinguish between Christ's Divine Nature and Christ's Human Nature. Our Lord and Saviour had 'both'. His Human Nature was manifested 'through Mary's Humanity' during the Incarnation. You do agree that Christ had two Natures, right? Are you denying this?

It was from her tissue which God drew forth the actual Blood of Christ through which we are all saved. It was from Mary's Fiat that the Holy Ghost came upon her to enter His Creation....

Do to me as you have said....

Our sinful nature is not a biological defect but a defect of our will to do His Will. Mary's will did His Will and she was Blessed for it...

And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord. ~ Luke 1:45

It is not Mary's biology which one should count as blessed but her conformity to the Will of God. This is what our Lord and Saviour meant...

Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!" But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" ~ Luke 11:28

Our Lord and Saviour is wholly God and wholly Man with two Natures, one Divine and one Human. His natures are two yet undivided. One Will undivided in two natures.

What are your teachings on these matters? I continue to believe that you would have us divide our Lord or discard His Humanity as useless or meaningless because His Divinity is all that is important. I believe this does grave harm to our understanding of our Lord and Saviour and the real reasons He assumed Humanity in order to save it.

Would you have an issue with "Christotokos" (i.e. Christ-bearer)?

 

I wouldn't know. I haven't read the content of what those councils wrote or decided upon and I don't really care. What I care about is what the Bible says. "Thus saith the Lord" is important to me, not "Thus saith a council. The Trinity is clearly taught in Scripture. There was no council that discovered it. That is hokey-pokey. Even in passages like Isaiah 6:8 it becomes obvious:

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
--Of course the NT is much more clear.

For all that I have posted you fail to read or understand what I have posted.
Jesus Christ, on earth, was fully God and fully man at the same time. I do not fail to distinguish between is Divine nature and his human nature at all. If you read through my posts you would have understood that by now.

Christ, the eternal God, came to earth as a man. However as a man he retained his deity at all times. There were times that he chose to lay aside many of his divine attributes. He suffered, he thirsted, he hungered--as a man--and yet he was God. He laid aside or decided not to use his divine attributes. He was always fully God and fully man.

When Jesus went to the cross He did so willingly. When Peter tried to prevent his going he was rebuked by the Lord, who told him that He could have called 24,000 angels, but He didn't--He didn't choose to exercise that divine attribute--his omnipotence.

His miracles were a display of his divine power demonstrating that he was deity. At those times he chose to exercise his divine omnipotence.

But when he came into this world as the God-man he did not use any of his divine attributes. Though He was God, He did not exercise his powers as God.

Regarding Mary, she was simply a vessel used by God to bring Christ into the world, and no special significance should be attached to her. God could have used another means, but he didn't. He chose Mary. She was simply a vessel that God used to bring Christ into this world. That is all that I am saying, and no more. Draw what conclusions you want. I am not giving any space or room for the heretical doctrine of theotokos, a doctrine historically rejected by mainstream Christianity, and accepted only by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

God used her, as a human vessel to bring Christ into this world and that is all. Mary plays no part in the salvation of man. She herself is a sinner in need of a Saviour.

Our sinful nature is inherited from Adam. Christ had no sinful nature for he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The sinful nature of Adam was by-passed.
Concerning Mary she still was a sinner. So she was blessed. So I am blessed also. Most Christians are blessed. Blessed means favored or happy. Are you not favored or "graced" by God. Are you not a recipient of God's grace. I feel sorry for you if your answer is in the negative.

And blessed are all those that believe the gospel and are saved. Are you not blessed. Have you not been a partaker of the grace of God.

And thus every one of us can conform to the will of God, adn be blessed. Thus Mary is no one special.

How true. That doesn't give Mary much of a place of honor that the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox do, does it?

I never denied that fact. What made you think that I did. I already emphasized that point in previous posts. If you had read what I posted you would have known that.

Then you continue to believe wrong, and have not been reading what I have been posting. I take what you have just posted as either ignorance, or slander. What do you choose?

And so He did. Why are you simply re-iterating what I have already said?