Jesus & Salvation By Faith ALONE

Keep reading Romans 3 Steaver.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

Please read my posts carefully. I have, of course, never denied that Paul denied "justification (salvation) by works". Instead, I have argued that the "works" that Paul is referring to are the works of the Law of Moses, not the different category of "good works".

Again, if you have been reading my posts (see post # 46), you would know that I have argumed that Paul here is denying justification by doing the Law of Moses, not doing good works.

 

And this somehow means that Paul just forgot what he just said?

Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Proper exegesis does not include contradictions. Maybe you could explain these two statements from Paul.

 

Is loving thy neighbour a "good work"?

Is loving thy neighbour part of the law of Moses?

 

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Steaver, i really dont know how so many have missed the warnings Jesus gave to us. So how did this come about? We Christians were actually givin many warnings about these bad guys and what they would do. The warnings are all around the new testament.

1 PETER 5 [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a ROARING LION, walketh about, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR:

Watch out for these roaring lions!

MATT.7 [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are RAVENING WOLVES.

Beware of these false prophets. They are RAVENING WOLVES. Also implied here is that “the many” will follow these false prophets and but a few will take the way of life.

ACTS 20 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous WOLVES ENTER IN among you, not sparing the flock.[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES after them.

The GRIEVOUS WOLVES were there from the beginning

EPH.4 [17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth WALK NOT AS OTHER GENTILES walk, in the VANITY of their mind,[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all UNCLEANNESS with GREEDINESS.

Well, I found all these warnings from the new testament in one scripture. The Day of the Lord scriptures are so great. Since “that day” has not yet arrived no one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel and does not apply to christians. Day of the Lord scriptures do apply to christians (those who believe that Jesus came) and these scriptures will come to pass. To see what these ROARING LIONS and RAVENOUS WOLVES have done, simply read and believe the Word.

EZEK.22 [23] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,[24] Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.[25] There is A CONSPIRACY OF HER PROPHETS in the midst thereof, like a ROARING LION ravening the prey; THEY HAVE DEVOURED SOULS; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.[26] HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the UNCLEAN AND THE CLEAN, and HAVE HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS, and I am profaned among them.[27] Her princes in the midst thereof are like WOLVES RAVENING THE PREY, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get DISHONEST GAIN.[28] And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, SEEING VANITY, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken

A conspiracy of the prophets. HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS! They meant to do it and they sure did pull it off despite the warnings

Hes a tricky little devil

 

Paul put it like this...

2Cr 11:3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

I understand where you are coming from but I am not committing the contradiction that you think I am.

It is, of course, true that the Law of Moses contains prescriptions about doing "good works". But your implied argument here is not correct. You seem to be putting forward an argument of the following form:

1. Assume that Paul denies justification by doing the Law of Moses and does not deny justification by doing "good works" (this is Andre's position);

2. We know that the Law of Moses contains prescriptions about "good works";

3. Therefore to deny justification by the Law of Moses also denies justification by "good works";

4. Therefore the position set forth by Andre cannot be sustained because it is self-contradictory

This argument is invalid as can be seen by its application in another context;

1. Assume that Paul denies justification by following the Boy Scout code and does not deny justification by doing "good works";

2. We know that Boy Scout code contains prescriptions about "good works";

3. Therefore to deny justification by doing the Boy Scout code also denies justification by "good works"

4. Therefore, to deny justification by following the Boy Scout code implies denial of justification by doing "good works"

Do I really need to explain what is wrong with this kind of argument? The problem is that to follow the Boy Scout code entails doing all the weird "non good works" stuff - wearing the funny hat, doing the funny salutes, doing the secret handshakes, etc. So if someone denies "justification by following the Boy Scout code", they are not necessarily denying justification by doing good works - they are denying justification to those who do all the stuff in the code.

Or put another way, imagine that someone made this kind of argument in a context where to graduate from Harvard, you need to get a score of > 80 % on a national exam (which could indeed be case):

1. I deny that being a Harvard graduate is the criteria for being hired by Law firm X;

2. Being a Harvard graduate entails scoring more than 80 % on the national exam;

3. Therefore to deny that graduating Harvard is the basis for being hired by Law firm X also means you are also denying that scoring 80 % is the criteria for being hired by Law firm X.

This is simply invalid reasoning. And substitute "doing the works of the Law of Moses" for being a Harvard grad, and "good works" for scoring > 80 %, and "justification / salvation" for being hired by law firm X and you can see the problem.

One can perfectly coherently deny justification by doing the works of the Law of Moses without necessarily denying justification by the more general category of "good works", even though the Law of Moses does indeed prescribe "good works".

 

You have not provided a valid critique of my position.

No argument here. Like others, you engage in rhetorical dismissal of people whose position you disagree with.

You have provided no evidence (yet anyway) of any error in my arguments.

 

The writings of Paul seemed to be all misconstrude (is that a word)

2 PETER 3 [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.[18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Seems to me that almost all the scriptures used by those who wanna do away with Gods 10 commandments come out of the writings of Paul. I really do not think it is done intentionally now, although scripture points out that is was a conspiracy at the start. But..to what end?

ACTS 25 [7] And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. [8] While he answered for himself, NEITHER AGAINST THE LAW OF THE JEWS, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, HAVE I OFFENDED ANY THING AT ALL.

During the time of Paul there were also many who accused Paul, saying he was not keeping the law of the Jews (which includes the sabbath). Just as it is today, nobody seems to be able to prove that.

 

You have yet another problem with your thesis.

Paul also said,

Gal 5:14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


And this law will not justify one unto salvation....

Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

I don't know of anyone on this board who wants to "do away with" any of God's commandments. What many do do on this board is earnestly defend for the gospel of grace through faith ALONE.

Keep the sabbath in your own way all you want, God has given you that liberty. But just understand this...

Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

So the next question might be how does the bible tell us to love one another

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Kinda hard to do a song and dance around those scriptures

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because there will be some out there that will try and tell you the “commandments” mentioned are not the 10 commandments. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. There will also be some out there that will tell you since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me”is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored.

JOHN 15 [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS, AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.

 

You have yet to show any problem at all with my thesis.

Again, this argument does not actually work - it is subject to the "Harvard" example from my previous post. But I will reformulate.

1. Andre asserts that denial of justification by the Law of Moses does not deny justification by good works;

2. Steaver argues, appealing to Galatians 5:14 that the demonstration of love fulfills the Law of Moses.

3. However this does not necessarily mean that the converse is true, namely that doing the law of Moses is necessarily an act of love.

4. And it also does not mean that the only way to demonstrate love is to do the Law of Moses.

5. Therefore Paul can indeed say that love fulfills the Law of Moses and yet also deny that doing the Law of Moses justifies someone and also embrace the position that love (as an example of good works) indeed does justify.

 

The book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. The commandments are not mentioned at all. Yet, those people that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so. The book of Galatians is speaking of circumcism. The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross.

 

COL. 2 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Your not alone good Dr. The scripture above is the scripture used by all the sunday go to meetin denominations to rid themselves of Gods sabbath day. Its also their biggy to eat their piggy. There are many places in your bible which discuss the meat and the drink offerings of the holy days, new moons and the sabbath but they are ignored by the “many”.

1 CHRON. 23 [29] Both for the shewbread, and for the fine flour for meat offering, and for the unleavened cakes, and for that which is baked in the pan, and for that which is fried, and for all manner of measure and size; [30] And to stand every morning to thank and praise the Lord, and likewise at even; [31] And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the Lord in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the Lord:

2 CHRON. 2 [4] Behold, I build an house to the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

You know the new covenant scripture. Jesus nailed the handwriting of the ordinances to the cross.

NEH. 10 [32] Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God; [33] For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.

EZEKIEL 45 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Heres one. Same exact order as Col.2{16}, meat, drink, holy days (feast days), new moons, sabbaths. What are the odds these 2 scriptures are not speaking about the same thing? A trillion to one? Higher I suppose.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Theres the meat and drink offerings for the sabbath days that Col.2 [16] was speaking of.

EZEKIEL 46 [6] And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish. [7] And he shall prepare a meat offering, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.

The meat offering for the new moon that was spoken of in Col.2 [16].

LEVITICUS 23 [4] These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

In all the feast days (holy days) meat and drink offerings were written into the laws of commandments contained in the ordinances. The above scripture points out the holy day of passover when Jesus was crucified. So why should we judge no man in meat or drink in respect to holy days, new moons and sabbath days? Because Jesus fulfilled these offerings that were written in the law of commandments contained in the ordinances. The meat and drink offerings are no more to be observed.

WHY?

JOHN 6 [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

 

COL.2 [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Jesus blotted out “only” the handwriting of the ordinances.

2 KINGS 17 [36] But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.[37] And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

The “many” have come in the name of Christ and would have you to believe the law, the ordinances and the commandments are all lumped together as one. They do this so they can point out a scripture which talking about the law of circumcision (which was nailed to the cross) and then apply that scripture to the ten commandments. But as you can see in above scripture, the ordinances, the law, and the commandments are all separate. And it was not the law nor the ten commandments that Jesus nailed to the cross. It was the law contained in the ordinances.

EXODUS 12 [11] And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover. [12] For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. [13] And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. [14] And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

The feast days (holy days) are to be kept by ordinance. The meat and drink offerings were the laws contained in those ordinances.

2 CHRON. 2 [4] Behold, I build an house to the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

Here you see those offerings

EPH.2 [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And now you don’t.

ISAIAH 24 [5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

But in this “Day of the Lord” scripture it seems the many will go on believing what they’ve been taught by the sunday mourning pulpiteers.

 

Good Dr....The shadow knows

COL.2 [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ordinances has been blotted out. They were the shadow of things to come. What do the “many” claim the shadow was? They say the shadow was the new moons, feast days and Gods sabbath day. What do the scriptures say?

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Theres the shadow of Col.2 that was blotted out. It was not Gods sabbath day as the “many” claim.

HEBREWS 10 [1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings). The sabbath was not a shadow as the sunday mourners claim.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

In this scripture you can see the shadow of Christ. The meat and drink offerings of the sabbath. The sabbath was not the shadow of Christ. It was (according to the scriptures) the meat and drink offerings. The laws contained within the ordinances.

 

I also keep my Father's commandments because I love Him.

The huge detail that is being missed here is that any of our "keeping of our Father's commandments" DO NOT JUSTIFY!

Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

Give us an example of demostrating love that is not given us in the law of Moses.

 

Keep whatever days you feel compelled to keep and eat only that which you feel compelled to eat.

No matter what you choose you need to understand this...

Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Now this Sat coming I am holding a Men's fellowship at camp. We are going to feast on some pig dogs and barbecue. And guess what?

Gal 3:17And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Even if your doctrine is correct that we, as Christians, should not be eating pigs, it still will not negate the promise "by grace ye are saved through faith".