Jim Baker is back on TV

paidagogoes: I apoligize for messing up your moniker for it was not intentional. I am not the best at typing and I often screw up when typing. I was not trying to be cute either but trying to make a point.

 

Has anyone got a link to Jim Bakkers current efforts?

 

Here is an article from "Christianity Today".

The Restoration of Jim Bakker

 

Cetainly that is a judgment on your part but I am willing to give him some time and see what happens. His sin can't be nearly as bad as David and Moses. To kill someone is far grater than to steal money. I often wonder how many were behind his plan and he was just the front man?

Time will tell though. [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]Well, if you can't make a judgment, then you don't know anything. All is equal--no good, no bad. Without making judgments, there is no meaning in life. If you cannot say that a Rembrandt is better than a 5-year-old's scribbling with a crayon, then life is pretty drab, dreary, and meaningless. Everything is the same gray blah.

IMHO, when folks are bankrupt in argument and reasoning against an expressed judgment, they say, "Well, that's a judgment," thereby relegating it to the nether land of opinions where all opinions are equal. Not all judgments and opinions are equal. Informed and well-considered opinions, IMHO, are far superior to asinine and ignorant opinions based on feelings.

My considered opinion of repentance and confession was based on the Hebrew and Greek words used in the Old Testament and the New Testament respectively. Do you have sufficient knowledge, learning, and erudition to refute my judgment? Please clarify where I am wrong. Thank you.

 

[snip] His sin can't be nearly as bad as David and Moses. To kill someone is far grater than to steal money. [snip]
Time will tell though. [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I don't know that I can necessarily agree with this specious reasoning. From a human perspective, we seem to think murder is the worst of all possible sins. I’m not sure that this is necessarily Scriptural. Homosexuality, for example, may be as great sin because it is a direct affront to God in the perversion of His image bearer. After all, what makes murder so heinous is that it strikes down God’s image bearer. However, any sin directly against God, such as causing the Name of Christ to be tarnished and blasphemed, is serious business. Bakker’s worst sin was not merely stealing, although his stealing was especially despicable since it took from many widows and elderly folks, but his worst sin was the harm to the cause of Christ and lost souls who rejected Christianity and will go to Hell because of his wickedness. Bakker turned away many unbelievers from Christianity. They see all Christians, although wrongly, as being of the same ilk.

 

It is passing strange to me that there seems to be an outpouring of sympathy and concern for poor ole Jim but no one has expressed the same for those poor widows and elderly folks who lost their life savings. Furthermore, what about the poor unbelievers who were turned off to Christianity and will end up in Hell?

After reading the CT article, I had the impression that ole Jim is up to the same old tricks with a different spin.

 

Just a sidenote - I was an astrologer and New Ager when the Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals were hitting the culture. It seemed to many of us that Chrisitianity was going down and on its last legs. We believed that with the Age of Pisces coming to an end (which was started by Jesus), the "old" form of Christianity would come to an end. These scandals seemed to be evidence of that.

And yes, we thought the Bakkers and Jimmy Swaggart represented evangelical conservative Christianity. Their astrological charts were even published in New Age magazines so that their fall could be more easily dissected and understood (from the viewpoint of New Agers and astrologers). Public figures like them were considered to be more important than regular individuals as they represented a brand of Christianity to us.

 

paidagogos:

I have not heard one instance in the past few years about Baker when I have witnessed to people. What I do so often hear is about some local person they personally know and the shamans on TV. What I have seen and heard is about things like the Baptist Fondation of Arizona and the stupidity of Christians to follow the Shamans on TV such as Hagee, Hinn, etc. You know all of those on TBN and the "faith healers." Several years ago I had a hard time witnessing to the other workers because the owner was cheating customers and the people who worked there knew it. But he was faithful to go to church and give them money each Sunday. He even gave churches a discount too.

Everyone of us are good and bad in the same person. Every time we sin we shame the cause of Christ. Just some is more public than others.

How well do you know the deacons in your church. Do you know the same things their wives and other workers know about them?

I have seen homosexuals as deacons in a Baptist Church, men stealing in their businesses, pornography among some in the seminary, pornographt among men in the church, pornography among pastors who preach every Sunday, and men who beat their wives who are deacons. Their families know it and so do a few others.

To point the finger at one person is your right. But how well do you know the leaders in your church? If you do some investigation you might get some surprises. Just start preaching on those kinds of sins and see who comes forward. I know it first hand. I have friends who are lawyers and I grew up in a hell on earth home that went to church every Sunday. While people thought my dad was just the nicest guy. That was the farthest thing from the truth.

How much did God use the sinners such as Moses and David? Were they not murderers. The thing we cannot escape is that everyone of us are sinners but we must repent and be humble before God. I think that is the critical key.

 

I agree with you about the people he defrauded.

What about the SBC repaying those who were swindled out of over $400 million through the efforts of the BFA.

What about those you have turned off?

Eccl. 7:20, "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

 

Originally posted by paidagogos:

I am not defending what Jim bakker did; but you should not mention all the unbelievers who were turned off to Christianity and will end up in Hell without mentioning the millions of unbelievers who accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior while watching Jim Bakker on TV and are now going to Heaven...

 

I only saw the show a few times -- I was not a believer but I was totally turned off by Tammy Faye crying, her mascara running, and Jim pleading for money. That's all I heard.

I am truly curious as to the evidence for "millions" of unbelievers becoming Christians (and who stayed that way, got in good churches afterwards, etc.) as a result of Jim Bakker? How do you know it was millions?

 

When the show was in it's hayday, millions watched everyday. PTL Club was all anyone talked about.

I know a few hundred in my small town accepted Jesus through watching that show. I don't have proof of millions getting saved, but I will surely try to find you some.

I know that if that many in MY town came to the Lord; how much more all over the world?

I DO know they were always directed to a local church and would receive free books and a Bible to get them started in their new walk.

As I said before, I am not defending what Jim Bakker did, but let's don't throw the baby out with the bath water...

§ue

 

Sue, you go, Girl!

Amen!

And, gb93433, GREAT POST! You are so right on!

Baptists need to clear out a few beams from their own eyes instead of backbiting and railing on about others. As I said in another thread, we need to take care of getting our own lamps ready instead of worrying about the soot on the other lamps - Jesus is Coming Soon!

 

So Jim Bakker saved millions while robbing/deceiving millions? Sounds like a great role model!

 

Now, now...


Phil. 1:15 - 17


(That said, if the gospel itself is false, it must be repudiated and the teacher called to account...the WoF teachers are prime candidates...)

 

Yes, that passage is about false motives, not false teachings. But I think what I said was mild compared to what I see around here. And I'd rather be mildly sarcastic than openly defending heretical teachers and accusing those of defending the faith of being critical.

The prevailing attitude here on the BB seems to be, "If it's not hurting me or mine, it's okay."

 

Please reread my posts. I have stated repeatedely that I am not defending what Jim Bakker did wrong - neither will I negate all that he has done right.

Are all the souls he led to the Lord canceled out because of all the people who were defrauded?

This is simply not true. I know some people personally that gave money to PTL (but they did it of their own free will and were not coerced).

I know many MORE people, however, that were not defrauded, but now have a home in Heaven - thanks to &lt;gasp&gt; Jim Bakker...

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
John 8:7

I'm certainly not innocent enough to pick up a rock to throw at a man who has won more souls for the Kingdom than I ever will...

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
Isaiah 64:6

§ue (defending the faith just like y'all)

 

If someone steals, that is wrong, no matter how many people were saved despite what he did.

I realize, Sue, that you were not defending Jim Bakker. I aas posting more of a summation of what I see on a lot of threads, not just this one.

Just because all of us are sinners does not mean we are silent when someone is hurting the body of Christ. We are not talking about private individual stuff here (and on other threads), but people in pastoral or public positions who are leading (or did deceive in the past) people astray.

 

Then do the Biblical thing and confront them instead of gossipping about it on the Internet.

If all of this ranting and railing, stone throwing and backbiting about others is acceptable behavior, then I am truly ashamed to be called a Baptist anymore.

 

I submit that any of those folks that sent in money to Jim Bakker with faith, will be blessed by God no matter if PTL threw the money in a trash can.
I believe the Bakkers started out with right motives, but like many other Christians allowed money and fame to turn their heads and from then on it was downhill.