Jimmy Draper - Frog in the Kettle

How big is your church?
How many baptisms last year?

 

I am guessing this is really only important for the bean counter who are really into the numbers game. I personally see evangelism as a command from God, and that is why I personally do it as a Calvinist. No other reason, really. If God doesn't lead them, then I guess they won't come and that is in God's hands. What, exactly, is the problem?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Folks are lazy and don't want to do evangelism---that's what the problem is!

Blackbird

 

Blackbird, I haven't seen a dime's worth of difference between Calvinist or Arminian Southern Baptists when it comes to evangelism.

The fact is - Most Southern Baptist Churches are not doing enough regardless of their theological leaning.

Having said that I have observed that Most Southern Baptist must be Calvinists because they are surely leaving evangelism up to God!

 

Hardsheller---true! Whether folks are Calvinist or Armenian---both brands have their brand of laziness!

 

I recently went to a 1 day conference on Soul winning and I personally know I don't do it enough its not that I'm ashamed I just never really get around to it. I think we could all do more evangelism. The world is dying and we know the Way to true Life.

 

Young pastors are leaving the SBC in droves. Got involved mentoring a young pastor about a year ago. He introduced me to a network of postmodern leaders/facilitators(don't call them pastors). There exists an underground church network where "the action is"! But didn't see much emphasis on baptisms. Why are SBC baptisms slipping? Younger would-be Baptists are being wooed by postmodern and non-denomination churches. They are made to feel relavent. I know this is just one factor in the equation.

 

I have said for years that I hope the number of members in the convention gets gutted severely. Only when churches are full of believers will evangelism be a priority.

 

Amen, Daniel.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Non-saved Members of the Church. Now there is a contradiction of terms. It would seem to me that the more the Biblical doctrine of Calvinism is preached in the Church, the less relevant it would be to those who are perishing and consider it folly, and they would either get frustrated and leave or get saved through the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Now, granted, that may be bad news for the bean counters. But, I certainly agree with Daniel that it would be good news for the cause of Christ and evangelism in the long run.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Well, I don't know why you think that moderates are more involved in soul-winning...their churches definitely aren't growing (as a whole).

I also think that the lack of evangelism is due to laziness...this is true of Calvinists and Arminians. It is ridiculous to lay the blame for the lack of decline in baptisms at the feet of the Calvinists. Blame the lazy people in the pew who can't spell Calvinism or Arminianism, much less know what they are. Blame the lack of passionate, Biblical preaching. Blame the after-effects of liberal seminary education for pastors. Blame the anti-theological pastors, who don't equip their members for service and evangelism. Blame the unregenerate members who have infiltrated the churches due to lack of a Biblical ecclesiology. Blame the trap of "American-dream Christianity" that the churches are in.

There are many places to blame...let's look at ourselves and our own churches and fix these problems before we start the "Calvinist inquisition". Laziness and sin are the blames of declining church membership...not Calvinist theology. That is a cop-out, IMO.

 

I have never seen those who are rocking the boat ever spend much time rowing it.

The old question still must be answered. Who's living for Jesus Christ because of our life?

 

We are a very conservative, fairly Calvinistic (4-point) church, and we have continued to grow and see people saved. Our pastor of 30+ years preaches expositionally. We have a lively blended worship service, and the youth service is totally contemporary. We have several dozen people who are capable of teaching Sunday School straight from the Bible, and who do so. But we are rare.

The reason that young pastors are leaving is not the SBC itself; the problem is the hidebound traditionalism of so many churches, especially smaller bivocational and full time pastorates. The guys I know who are leaving are calvinistic AND evangelistic, but they are not tolerant of unbiblical traditions.

A clear concern of most of the young "preacher boys" that I know is "What is the Gospel?" Another is "Why don't we disciple people more effectively?"

The question "what is the Gospel?", is one that goes beyond calvinism and arminianism to gross easy believism. As yourself the following questions:

1. How many times in the Bible is Jesus referred to as "Personal Savior?"

none

2. How many times is someone in the Bible told to "open their heart to Jesus?"

none

3. How many times is someone in the Bible told to "accept Jesus?"

none

4. Are there ANY instances in the Bible of someone being told to "pray to receive Jesus?"

no

5. Except for the much-misapplied Rev 3:20 (which is NOT talking about the human heart in any way shape or form), is there any reference to "Jesus knocking on the door of your heart?"

no

6. What is the difference between baptizing a 5-year old who had to be coaxed to a profession of faith and baptizing an infant?

none

We could go on, but you get the picture. If you study in the Gospels and in the Acts how Jesus and the apostles dealt with people, you will find the following terms thrown around aplenty:

Repent
Confess
Believe
Follow
Call upon the name of the Lord

The heart of our evangelistic problem is that the hordes of unregenerate church members we have can't give away something they never had themselves.

This is not about Calvinism or Arminianism; this is not even about CBF vs SBC; it is about "What is the Gospel?" Until we return to the evangelism of the Bible, the discipleship of the Bible, and a biblical understanding of church membership and discipline, the situation will merely get worse.

 

The SBC has won its battle over theology. Now the battle is over methodology. That in my opinion is why many young pastors are walking away from the SBC. The SBC has spoken regarding its beliefs. Now it must allow for some flexibility in how those beliefs are presented. IMO the older generation of pastors has failed to welcome the new & innovative approaches employed today. That is why many simply opt out of the politics of the SBC and focus on their own local church.

 

Good points made by many here. Calvinism and Arminianism are not the problem. People from both theological camps find excuses to avoid sharing their faith.

Easy-believism is the main problem which results in an unregenerate church membership. We rush folks into making a "decision" for Jesus and then declare them to be saved when nothing really happened but a mere emotional experience. Scary, huh?

These newly "saved" folks become active in the church by joining committees, becoming deacons, and vote at business meetings on spiritual matters

OR

they fall away and never return.

 

I must say that I am not in agreement with Draper. I guess I would be considered a "young" pastor by some (I turn 40 this week). I hold a position in my local association. Matter of fact if you attend your local association meetings on a regular basis sooner or later you will end up getting elected to something since probably only 25-33% pastors attend these meetings.

Actually I think new Methology is being pushed down our throats. I cannot understand why the SBC pushes many Evangelistic programs that are designed for Mega Churches when the average SBC church runs under 100 in attenedance. In my local association we have I believe 19 churches. Only 3 of them run over 100 and one of those I believe has over 200. The majority of the remaining 16 churches averages between about 20-60 in attendance. And what does the La. Baptist Convention promote? 40 Days of Purpose! A program that is designed for LARGE churches not churches running our numbers.


The heart of the SBC problem is NOT that 10,000 Southern Baptist churches did not baptize a single person last year. The heart of the problem is as Major B states "the hordes of unregenerate church members". If I am not mistaken do not only 3 out of 10 Southern Baptists attend Church? That issue needs to be addressed first.

Also is not Lifeway part of the problem also? I must say that I think Lifeway provides at best mediocre education material (Though in fairness this Quarter it is greatly improved). Why does not Lifeway emphasize Baptist History more or the Reformation? How many Southern Baptists even know who John Smyth, Thomas Helwys, John Bunyan, William Kiffin or John Gill are? It is a disgrace! Yet Catholics are taught who St. Francis and Teresa Avila are and Methodists are taught on John Wesley. Much of the Fault is with Lifeway and Dr. Draper in that most Southern Baptists know little of the Protestant Reformation or Baptist heritage. I think Draper misses the mark.