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Joel Osteen

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by izzaksdad, Mar 9, 2005.

  1. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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  2. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    The email has been sent.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Bible also says "There is no God" (Psalms 14:1). Do you believe that too?
    Context is everything.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I quoted the full verse of Proverbs 18:21.
    You did not quote the full verse of Psalms 14:1.
    I do believe Psalms 14:1 that says, " the fool hath said in his heart that there is no God."
    Do you believe that Proverbs 18:21 is the word of God? If there is a context that I misseed in Proverbs 18:21 please tell me and please tell me what you think God's word is saying in proverbs 18:21.
    </font>[/QUOTE]The context is of Joel Osteen, and the quote that I gave which demonstrates his belief: Faith in words, rather than faith in Christ.

    Proverbs 18:21 has nothing to do with the above context. Nether does John 1:1 which also quotes "the word." You can quote any verse you want, but if it has nothing to do with the subject at hand what relevance or use does it have? Quote the geneaology of Christ if you like, but that won't answer the question that we are dealing with.

    Osteen's belief: Putting your faith in your words, is outright heresy. I demonstrated that by referring you to a passage in First Samuel. Prayer is not in words. Hannah spoke in her heart. Her voice was not heard. Only her lips moved. The vocal words mean nothing to God. It's whats in the heart that counts. Faith in words (as faith in faith [WOF movement]) is heresy, Proverbs 18:21 notwithstanding.
    DHK
     
  4. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Well WOF or not.......which would be worse....
    1. Say I can do something and fail to achive the goal I set.

    or

    2. Say I can't, and never try.

    Phil. 4:13 ~
    I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Being a motivational speaker is great, if that is all a person is. There are many people that do that for a living. But to mix in religion or faith in with it is wrong. Be motivated. But have your faith in the right object. The object of my faith is Christ, not my words. If the object of your faith is anything else but Christ you are going down the wrong path.

    Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

    Look unto Jesus--not your words!
    Consider Jesus--not your words!
    Have faith in HIM--not your words!
    DHK
     
  6. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    I havent watched Joel Osteen enought to critique his teaching, but if he is WOF than probably I agree with some of what he teaches, but probably disagree with other things he teaches.

    If I knew what he meant by that, I maybe could venture an opinion, but I have no idea what he meant.

    I dont have the scriptures here with me now, so this might not be a direct quote, but Jesus one time said something close to this:

    "How often I wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you would not."

    We tell people who are outside of Christ all the time when witnessing that:

    "God wants to save you, and He has died for you, and rose again to save you, but you must embrace Christ in order to recieve Gods salvation."

    In both of those cases what Osteen said is not problematic at all. The quote given from Osteen is too vague to say whether what he is talking about is the truth or not.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  7. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    Does it matter in what context he meant it?

    Does man really have power over God?

    Can we truly say that God is incapable of doing even one thing unless He is loosed by man?

    I have never and will never tell someone "God wants to save you, BUT..."

    There is no such thing as a man having any power over God or any power to do something that God could not do...which is nothing.

    To say that God's hands are tied, in ANY context, is heresy in its highest form.

    We then make ourselves above God by promoting ourselves to His captors. Such is not and never will be, or ever could be, the case.
     
  8. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    Reed, what's really 'bugging' you when it comes to Osteen? Could it be because he's not of your faith?

    Another thing, why are you so bent on wanting to *gossip* about what you know on him, "When he's not in church?" Sounds as though you know him personally! Shrugs shoulders... :rolleyes:

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  9. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Bro James Reed...

    I'm not defending Osteen, because I dont know enough about his teachings to defend, or criticise.

    No its not. Not if its only being used as an expression, to make a point. It depends on what is being said.

    Are you saying Jesus Christ was promoting "heresy in its highest form" when He Himself said...

    "How often I wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you would not."

    Christ is saying that the unbelieving Jews prevented Him from doing...fully...what He wanted to do.

    This is not rocket science.

    Mike
     
  10. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Ok I been looking through some sermons of Osteen's.
    Bro. Reed are you sure he didn't say that we limit God?
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is typical WOF jargon, and as Bro James points out it is heresy. God's hands cannot be tied, otherwise he would not be God. God is infinite and omniscient. He is all-powerful, the sovereign creator of this universe. To even suggest that one can have power over God is heretical. Yet this is the very thinking in many Charismatic circles.

    They believe that they can "command God" to do whatever they please. They treat God as their puppet. They take him out of their genie bottle any time they want, and command him to do what ever they want, and put him back in the bottle, while they go on their sinful ways. This is how their god is treated. That is not the God of the Bible.
    DHK
     
  12. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    DHK,

    You said...

    As I have said, I dont know anything about Joel Osteen. Just what people are saying on here.

    If Joel Osteen is teaching all that you now seem to be publicly crediting him as teaching, then of course there is a huge problem, and I would agree completly with you. I will stand arm and arm with you against such teachings.

    But I havent seen any actual quotes from him actually teaching these things.

    I have seen general comments about him being a "WOFer"...but that doesnt help much.

    I have known WOFers who are exceedingly problematic...just exactly as you described...to the point of being cultic and my wondering if they are saved.

    But I have known many other WOFers who would laugh at what I just quoted from you and who really arent much different than maybe a very non-problematic Assemblies of God member. Those people are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Have you heard Joel Osteen teach that which I have quoted from you?

    This is completly different than the Catholic threads as an example, because the Catholics have their theology very clearly stated in catechisms, Council edicts, the Catholic encyclopedia, etc. But the WOFers dont. Every WOF church is autonomous and free to teach or not teach what they want in these areas.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  13. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    This is typical WOF jargon, and as Bro James points out it is heresy. God's hands cannot be tied, otherwise he would not be God. God is infinite and omniscient. He is all-powerful, the sovereign creator of this universe. To even suggest that one can have power over God is heretical. Yet this is the very thinking in many Charismatic circles.

    They believe that they can "command God" to do whatever they please. They treat God as their puppet. They take him out of their genie bottle any time they want, and command him to do what ever they want, and put him back in the bottle, while they go on their sinful ways. This is how their god is treated. That is not the God of the Bible.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]Wait a minute! First you talk about the WOF movement 'commanding' your GOD to do whatever they please. Then, you turn around with the idea/opinion about them and say that this is how they treat their (g)od.

    Which one do you think they are serving? From what I read about Osteen, he is of the belief of the trinity! He doesn't believe in water baptim as a must, doesn't believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues, as a must, but he does believe in repentance, as you do DHK, so what's your real problem?

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  14. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    The Bible also says "There is no God" (Psalms 14:1). Do you believe that too?
    Context is everything.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I quoted the full verse of Proverbs 18:21.
    You did not quote the full verse of Psalms 14:1.
    I do believe Psalms 14:1 that says, " the fool hath said in his heart that there is no God."
    Do you believe that Proverbs 18:21 is the word of God? If there is a context that I misseed in Proverbs 18:21 please tell me and please tell me what you think God's word is saying in proverbs 18:21.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am still waiting for an answer??????????
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    And I heard, with my own ears, his whole sermon on how our thoughts affect material reality. He told two stories to illustrate this, the second one being how a man made his wife die because he was so afraid he would lose her (she was young and died unexpectedly and suddenly). This is part of WF beliefs (and comes from New Thought).

    "God's hands are tied until we loose them" is part of Word Faith teachings. They say this all the time. They believe that we must "loose" God's hands with our mouths, by speaking things we want so God can do them.

    Their view of God is that he is limited because he lost his rights on earth with the Fall. They believe that God depended on man for the salvation plan to work out and that he is still limited because Satan is around. So we have to help God by speaking things so he can do them.

    So, not accepting these teachings has nothing to do with whether Osteen is in another church or not. It has to do with him preaching false teachings, such as the WF teachings. They are unbiblical; they bring bondage; they damage people; and I reject them.
     
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Excuse me, but I m not sure what you mean by that statement??
    YOu have accused me in the past of personal /attack and have accused others of personal attacks. Explain your statement!!!
    Is this intended to be a persoanal attack , or did you say this without thinking?
    </font>[/QUOTE]This is not a personal attack. It is merely an observation of fact. Your statement that I commented on is known as a logical fallacy called a straw man.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I M TAKING THIS AS A PERSONAL ATTACK.
    QUIT ACCUSING EVERYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH YOU OF GIVING YOU A PERSONAL ATTACK UNLESS YOU CAN PRACTICE A LITTLE DISCIPLNE YOURSELF RATHTER THAN PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME AND OTHERS!!!
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am sorry you think it is a personal attack but it is not. It is an observation. A straw man argument is what you were using to respond to what was being discussed. It is a logical fallacy.

    I am not going to admit to a personal attack when it was not one.
     
  17. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    For those of you who say that you just haven't heard Osteen say these things, several links have been given that document these type of teachings.

    Go to this link:
    http://www.lakewood.cc/sermon_listing.htm#

    Click on the sermon, Guard Your Thoughts. A window pops up. I am unable to copy from that window, so I am having to copy it here manually:
    Well, guess what? This is EXACTLY what is taught in the New Age, and what I and my friends believed in the New Age (these are actually principles of New Thought, as I have said several times). If you have negative thoughts, or you repress negative thoughts and fears, you will attract negative things to you.

    Also, faith is NOT a force! The WF teachers teach you to wield faith as though it's a magical force.

    Sure, Osteen says some things that are true, but he has so much poisonous stuff insidiously mixed in that it taints most of what he says. The context is all wrong.

    The articles that were posted show the things he has said that are not biblical. So please check them out!
     
  18. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Marcia,

    I had mentioned earlier that I had never heard an entire sermon from Joel Osteen. I had just stopped a few times and heard a little "pep talk".

    Well, now I've read the entire sermon you suggested we read..."Guarding your thought life"...and I'll tell you what. Its got a lot more scripture than I thought, and its actually pretty good stuff. Good scriptures...properly applied. The one mention of "prosperity" I caught was in part of a section of the message where he was clearly speaking of nothing more than God meeting our needs, and not God making us millionaires.

    Do you not believe we can trust God to meet our needs?

    I'll be honest...I was impressed with this message. As I said before, I have heard WOF teaching that is dangerous, imo. Cultic. But this teaching aint it. This is pretty good stuff.

    You have already given the link, so I'll just quote parts of it, with some comments from me....


    "I want to talk to you a little while today about the importance of guarding your mind and controlling your thought life. Your mind plays a tremendously important role in your walk of faith. See, when you got born again. When you made Jesus the Lord of your life, the Holy Spirit infuses the life of God into your Spirit man, your inside man, and you were changed. The Bible says, "we become new creatures in Christ Jesus"."

    Do you have a problem with that? Do you not think its important to guard your thought life?

    "The Bible says, "you're in the palm of God's hand and no man can snatch you away". But he can deceive you in the mental area if you allow him to. Jesus called Satan in John 8:44, the "father of lies and all that is false". And I can't think of any area that keeps more people in bondage than this area of our thought life. Satan specializes in worry, fear, anxiety, confusion, and doubt. He is a master deceiver and he knows that he can control and manipulate our whole lives by simply affecting the way we think."

    Do you not believe that Satan is the author of those things?


    "Your mind is the bulls' eye of Satan's target. The only entrance Satan has into your personality, your emotions, into your thoughts is through your mind. But fortunately, friend, you control that ever important doorway. The only access the enemy has in your life is the access you allow him to have. That's why the Bible says in Ephesians 4:27, "Give no place to the devil". Don't give him any place in your mind or in your thoughts. You've got to be very selective and very cautious about what you choose to think about. You've got to take control of your life by standing guard over your thought life.

    But God gives us a tremendous promise here in Isaiah 26:3. It's very simple. Yet it's really profound…it's really powerful. God said, "I will keep you in perfect peace if you keep your mind stayed on me." Notice there is something that we all have to do if we're going to experience perfect peace. And that is we've got to control our thought life. We've got to guard our minds. We've got to think on the things of God. But friends, this is not going to happen just automatically. This has got to be a decision you continually make throughout life."


    That is a wonderful passage from Isaiah. Dont you agree that its good to keep our mind stayed on God, and doing that will help to keep us in perfect peace? I know I do, and its a good application he is giving here.


    "Some of you think, you know, Joel, that's just the way I am. Mom and Dad used to worry. Grandma and Grandpa used to worry. They were all negative people. Our whole family always worries. We're professional worriers. That's just the way God made me.
    No friends, with all due respect, that's a lie. Worrying is a choice. And you've got to rise up today in the name of Jesus and just break that habit. And refuse to listen to Satan's lies. And you've got to refuse to let your mind dwell on that junk.

    The Bible tells us what we should dwell on in Philippians 4:8. It's to "think on things that are pure and honest and of a good report." Things that build you up, not tear you down. Think on all the great things God has done for you, the bible says. In other words, you've got to dwell on the positive and not the negative. Quit thinking about what you don't have and start thinking about what you do have. Quit thinking about what's wrong with you and start thinking about what's right with you. Quit thinking about how big your problem is and start dwelling on the fact of how big your God is."


    A little "positive thinkingish" at times, but I dont think he went to any extreme, and a wonderful conclusion at the end.


    "See, we've got to learn to live a grateful life and we've got to always focus on the positive and not the negative. See, friends, if you're continually thinking about the goodness of God, you're not going to have any time to worry and complain and get down and discouraged. If you're always meditating on God's promises, then you're always going to be filled with a good report. The words that come out of your mouth are going to be faith-filled words. You're not going to be up one day and down two days. No, you're going to be consistent. You're going to be solid because it's not going to matter what your circumstances do. It only matters what God's Word says."

    I have heard some WOF teachers go waaaaay into "la la land" when they start talking about "faith filled words", but Osteen doesnt. He just talks of trusting God. Are you against trusting God?

    "See, friends, in life, situations and circumstances are constantly changing. But thank God the good news is we serve a God that never changes. He is consistently good. He is there all the time. He'll never leave us nor forsake us. He's the solid rock. And the promises in His Word will never pass away."

    How can you not give a hearty "amen" to that, Marcia?

    OK, here is where he brings up "prosperity"...

    "But if you just choose to keep your mind stayed on the things of God, you're not going to really care what the economy does. You're not going to really care what the stock market does because you're dwelling on the fact that God said in Philippians 4:19, "he is going to supply all of your needs according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." It doesn't really matter what man does or what the economy does. Friends, God can still rain down bread from heaven to take care of us like He did the children of Israel. God has not lost the recipe for manna.

    When Peter needed money to pay his taxes, Jesus said, No big deal Peter. Just go down to the lake and go fishing. Sure enough, the first fish he caught, it had enough money to pay both his and the Lord's taxes.

    And see friends, you don't have anything to worry about. God can take care of you. He has not gotten weak. God has not become tired and old and grumpy. He is still well able and extremely willing to meet every need that you have. (APPLAUSE) God takes pleasure in the prosperity of His saints. And it's time for us to quit thinking so small and let's start dwelling on what an awesome God we serve. He is the all-powerful Creator of this universe. He spoke the worlds into existence. Don't you think He can take care of you and me?"


    Dont you see, Marcia? In that passage there is one statement about "the prosperity of His saints", but I bolded 5 clear statements that make clear that all he is talking about is God...meeting...our...needs...and taking care of us.

    Do you disagree with that?


    "Because see friends, it really doesn't matter what I say about you. It really doesn't matter what anybody else says about you. All that really counts is what does God say about you? What does God say about your situation today?

    See, somebody may come up to you and say, Man, your son or daughter really got off track. Man, they're going down the wrong path. It doesn't look like they're ever going to straighten up and serve the Lord. Listen, friends, you can just smile and look at them and say, "Listen, with God all things are possible. And as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (APPLAUSE)

    Somebody may come up to you and say, "Man are you still single? You must be really lonely. Are you ever going to get married?" You just smile and look at them with great confidence and say, "Listen, my steps are ordered by the Lord. Psalm 37:4 says, Because I delight myself in the Lord, He will give me the desires of my heart. So I don't have anything to worry about."

    Somebody comes up to you today and says, "Man, you don't look very good. Are you feeling all right? Are you sure you shouldn't go home and go to bed?" Look, you look at them and just say, "Listen, by the stripes of Jesus I've already been healed. It doesn't matter what I look like, I'm coming out of this. This sickness didn't come to stay, it came to pass. And I'm coming out in the name of Jesus."

    See, friends, you've got to have some promises to stand on. What does the Bible say about your situation? See, this takes a little bit of effort. Don't be lazy. Human nature-all of us, you know, we want the easy way out. We'll pray, God, hit me with your magic wand and fix all my problems. You know. You pray it too, don't you?"


    And here, Marcia he goes out of his way to say its NOT that way...meaning a "magic wand"...

    "Listen, it took ten years to get in debt. You're going to have to stand on the promises of God and believe that He's going to bring you out. It may not happen overnight, but I guarantee you it will happen. All the promises of God are "yes and amen". God is not a man that He shall lie. If you're standing on one of His promises, you can count it as good as gold, God will bring it to pass. Amen?"

    If this is all Osteen is preaching and teaching, that I dont have a problem with it at all. I agree with what a lot of you all are saying about the idea that we can just use "faith filled words" to "SPEAK" a MERCEDES BENZ into existance and that God wants us to be dripping with wealth and luxuries and golden dog houses and whatnot.

    But I sure dont hear Osteen teaching that. At least not in this message, and since you singled it out I am assuming you selected a particularly "bad" one.

    I believe this is a pretty good message, one that could be given by any non WOF "conservative evangelical" preacher or teacher.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  19. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    I believe its a pretty good message too! [​IMG]
     
  20. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    quote by Marcia:
    __________________________________________________
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Fear a force just like faith is a force. If you give into fear and start to dwell on that junk and start to act on it, that fear can actually bring things to pass just like faith can bring things to pass.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, guess what? This is EXACTLY what is taught in the New Age, and what I and my friends believed in the New Age (these are actually principles of New Thought, as I have said several times). If you have negative thoughts, or you repress negative thoughts and fears, you will attract negative things to you.


    So Marcia do you think that since the New Agers use this then its wrong for a Christian to apply it? Where in the world do think the New Agers stole it from?

    Quote by Joel out of the sermon Guarding Your Mind:
    __________________________________________________
    The Bible says in Proverbs 3:27, "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." You will eventually become what you think. And you can't think one thing and become something else. If you allow yourself to think negative worried, fearful thoughts, then you will become a negative, worried, fearful person.
    __________________________________________________

    Being a person who used to have panic attacks (but no longer because of preaching like this)... I can say positive thinking is right thinking as long as you keep your thoughts on God and what His Word says. I tried negative thinking and guess what.........being positive and thinking positive is better.

    Remember the story about the girl who had died in Matthew 9:18-26 and Jesus said the positive thing (Shes not dead) they laughed at him (v.24), now take note of verse 25...But when the people were put forth, he went in... they got the negative people (scorning morners) out of there, then... took her by the hand, and the maid arose. This story is not just a story on healing... but I read a message of being positive too. [​IMG]

    Music4Him
     
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