John 12:32

Southern,

I, as an Arminian, admit that John 12:32 could be refering to "all kinds." I think it is important to understand John's gospel in that light. Earlier in John 6 Jesus, speaking to a Jewish audience, indicates that only those drawn could come to him. This is consistant with the understanding that the Jewish nation was being hardened and Christ had reserved a remnant of those Jews to disciple and prepare to be the foundation for the future church. Once this and redemption on the cross was accomplished then He would draw all men, both Jew and Gentile. This would include many of those Jews who were not being drawn while Christ was on earth, they were being hardened previously.

 

Jesus only began to harden the hearts of the Israelites, generally speaking, after their rejection of Him as a nation and then in 70 A.D. the hammer of the Lord fell on Jerusalem. He honored the Jew by first going to them and later brought in the Gentiles.

The Spirit of God was drawing sinners as early as in Genesis chapter six verse three during the time of Noah. The Holy Spirit declares Himself to be drawing sinners to Himself in Revelation 22:17. He is alive and well in the earth today, drawing people who have heard the Gospel. It is our ministry of reconciliation [II Corinthians 5:19e] to call people to the One Who died on the Cross for sinners. In 5:19 God is not drawing only the chosen-frozen into the church/kingdom, He declares that 'God was in Christ, reconciling the world [II Corinthians 5:19 & I John 2:2] to Himself.' He was not saving the 'kosmos'/world/earth but was insuring that all human sinners can be saved. Now He makes it the responsibility of sinners to believe in His so great salvation. [John 3:16 & Acts 16:31]

We are to preach, teach and witness to every sinner because all can come to Jesus. [Mark 16:15] Every created human being . . .

 

#1. Jesus did not harden the heart of anyone - they harden their own heart by choosing rebellion.

#2. The text uses the Arminian format - "I will draw all mankind unto Me".

This is the “all” the “unqualified all” scope of John 12. Christ does not say “only some of those who love their life will lose it”. Christ does not say “only some of those who discount their life in this world will keep it”. Christ does not say “for some of you – serving Me will mean following Me – for WHERE I am there a few of my servants will be also”. Christ does not say “The Father will honor some of those who serve Me”. Nor does He say “some of you will be allowed to choose to Serve Me”.

The statement above works as an all inclusive showing that to EVERYONE the call goes out and ANYONE may choose to serve, to honor, to follow Christ.

By Contrast – Christ shows that the message about being celebate is NOT for all mankind or even all of His followers. Matt 19:11

Christ uses NO slippery marketing tactic to make it “Appear” that He is more generous than He really is. He does not say “I draw at least one of every KIND of human” – though for some this is what they want Christ to be saying here. Rather the statement is framed in a way that fits the Arminian model perfectly. It must be “edited” to make it Calvinist.

The World wide – unlimited scope of Christ’s work is manifest “to save the world”.

</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

Bob

 

Southern,

As to John 12:32, could Jesus not said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw men from all nations unto Me?" I take this verse to mean that He via the Spirit will draw all persons unto Me. We all believe that He has called men and women to the fold of Christ.

 

Hi Southern;
We can all change the meaning of the word "All" using the English dictionary. But the Bible was written in ancient Greek. Not in English. This is how it reads in ancient Greek;
kosmou toutou ekblêthêsetai exô: kagô an hupsôthô ek tês gês, pantas helkusô pros emauton.
This is how the Greek word in question is defined in Ancient Greek, in bold;

pantas, or Pas ( all, the whole ) Entry in LSJ or LSJ or LSJ or LSJ or Middle Liddell
pantas masc acc pl indeclform
Frequency in other Authors Greek Word Search
Corpus Words Max. Inst. Freq./10K Min. Inst. Freq./10K
New Testament 137853 1252 90.82 1035 75.08
Greek Texts 4851073 25595 52.76 19466 40.13

There is no other meaning period. They don't add meanings to Ancient Greek any more because only scholars use it. Another reason is purity of the language.
Something to think about; They do add new meanings to English words If you wait long enough the meaning you want will come around.

You haven't proven your side of the issue yet. While insisting others are wrong. I'd be interested in what your view is. Are you balancing you belief entirely on English Grammar and definition or Ancient Greek.
If this post doesn't address your wanted answer I suggest that you check it out your self. By all means. This argument has already been proven.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

Hi Southern;
Strongs defintions are an English version of modern Greek not Ancient Greek. Note the two spellings "Pantas" and "Pas" The first is the Ancient Greek spelling.

Then How can you argue with an Anceint Greek dictionary?
Your insistance that you have refuted what "ALL" means is with scholars much higher in learning than both of us. Actually I believe you haven't refuted anything to refute means to disprove and you clearly haven't done that. What you have done is take the same word with a different adjative that changes it's meaning but in John 12:32 there really is no adjative The word men is in Italics meaning it was added to make the rendering more clear for gramar's sake. So one is left with only one conclusion that the word in question means "ALL" and that's all there really is to it. Can you show how the word by itself means any other thing than what it's face value really is which once again means "all inclusive"
I have respect for your effort believe me I do You are a very intelligent person and I enjoy talking with you. How ever what is actually refuted is your opinion and not mine.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Hi Southern;
Mark 1:5 Is the Baptism of all Israel by John the Baptist they flocked to the man for this baptism, and I have no doubt that any on looker would preceive that the whole of Israel was being baptised. John the Baptist was a prophet from God to Israel all those who were of the judean faith were drawn to the man. Even the priest.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

This remind me of when Bill Clinton said, It all depends on what is is?

"All" means different things in different contexts.

Sometimes it means everyone, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Hi Southern;
In Mat 10:22 the word men is in Italics. It just wasn't in the original manuscripts. At this particular place in scripture Christ gives the disciples instructions before He gets to verse 22;

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus isn't speaking to any one but the disciples.

All the men Christ spoke these words to were Jews and it is the Jews "as a whole" who are hated for His name sake. Even Christians have hated the Jews. How or why anyone would want to be a Jew is beyond my understanding. At any rate many who profess to be a Jew are not. At any rate this verse of Mat 10:22 is addressed to Jews and is not intended to be any thing other than Jews. You will notice that In Jn 12:32 the context is clearly defined in verse 31;

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Christ is the prince of the entire world and the world is what He is speaking about. When He says "all" even though the word "Men" isn't really there we know this is what is meant. And that is all inclusive or everyone in the world.Including the jews them selves

As far as error is concerned. We could argue this until the sun burns out and never come to an agreement between you and I. "ALL" is still all inclusive. Of course this doesn't mean that's everything on the planet, but rather all of what ever that subject. If it were elected or a special group it should have said so but men 2000 years ago men didn't speak the way we do today. They didn't have the sane grammar in fact they didn't even have a dictionary. All words have a root meaning and is how they are translated what they are saying.
I've only studied ancient Greek for a short while about a year. I could be wrong but then it's not my responsibility to find out for you if I'm wrong, that's your own judgement or discernment.
I can only point out what I believe to be truth There is only one absolute truth either your wrong in your thoughts on this word or I am. To make a fair determination takes study. Of course we all want to be right all the time, but only the truth of it will bring peace for our own minds. If you feel at peace about it settle for what you believe it is. after all it's not a Salvation issue. What we trully believe for in our hearts is.

I've answered your questions now won't you answer one of mine?. What is your opinion of what John 12:32 is saying.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Southern,

I'd like to know why you think that the God who created ALL there is, did not send His son to redeem ALL there is?

Why do you insist that there is a "special group" that God is after?

Your theology short circuits God's plan of redemption for man, "for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God!" Why would God be interested in only an "elect" group which equates to some out of ALL? Why not ALL out of ALL. After all It is God the Father's desire that NONE should perish. None is defined as NOT ONE OUT OF ALL!

Afterall, the new earth is going to be magnitudes greater in size than this present earth, because it must support a city that is 1500 miles high, wide and long. This earth could not possibly support such a structure, our atmosphere is a mere 175 miles thick.

 

Then you do not understand the very nature of a BBS system. It is all about what you and I, and anyone else thinks!

 

Timothy 2:6 - who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.

Romans 5:18 - So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Hebrews 2:9 - But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for EVERYONE.

2:2 -
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the WHOLE WORLD.

Jesus' sacrifice draws all men to the cross. Jesus died for all men, potentially (meaning that men are free to believe or not believe, in which case if they believe, Jesus's sacrifice will benefit them, and if they do not believe, the sacrifice will not benefit them)


Corinne