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John 3:16

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Nov 19, 2002.

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  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    John 3:[16]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    For God so loved the world... Did God love the whole Adamic race of mankind if he did why is there a hell since no one is going there?... Or is the love of God spoken here conditional on the creature?... Or is it a plain biblical fact that there are some God does not love and it is according to his own will and puropse as the potter to the clay?

    If this is true then John 3:17 is a mute point only refering to only God children as God did not love the whole Adamic race of mankind and send his Son Jesus Christ to die for them. He sent him only to die for the ones the Father gave the Son to save and no one else.

    Go to the cross of Calvary and see the two thieves crucified with Jesus neither one did any act to accept or reject his Salvation but one was his and one was not. One went to paradise and nothing is said about the other one. That is a good picture of man in relation to his obtaining salvation... He is nailed down hand and foot and neither can work it out with his own hands or walk it out in obedience.

    God did state when he created the world that it was good indeed very good but then sin entered into the world and God cursed it... Is it still good indeed very good... No it is sinful... polluted... and cursed. No where in the scriptures does it say God loved the whole Adamic race of mankind... God who sees the end from the beginning and those things not yet done saying my counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure.

    My stand is God WILL save ALL his blood bought children... without any help from them to accept it or reject it. If they had the ability to accept or reject it then why did he come?... He came because of their unability to save themselves who are the elect given from the Father.

    John 3:16 the verse that everyone loves to quote is taken from Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus about being born again. Men have no control over their natural and neither have control over their spiritual birth.

    Romans 8:33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    [34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    Romans 8:28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    [31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    [32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?... Everything is Gods love upon his elect only and applies to no one else but those who are the objects of his love!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ November 19, 2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
    #1 tyndale1946, Nov 19, 2002
  2. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    God loves all mankind. Not everyone goes to heaven. Some of the children God loves will go to Hell. God's love is unconditional. Merely because God loves a person does not mean that He cannot send that person to Hell. This is your fallacy, and the rest of your post is merely made of strawmen.
     
    #2 ScottEmerson, Nov 19, 2002
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    When these are in hell, does God still love them?

    Ken
     
    #3 KenH, Nov 19, 2002
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    When these are in hell, does God still love them?

    Ken    </font>[/QUOTE]Irrelevant to the original question. Would you like to start a new thread?
     
    #4 ScottEmerson, Nov 19, 2002
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Scott now I know why you brethren cannot understand grace!... Those God loves will never end up in HELL!... I thank God I don't believe that and never did!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
    #5 tyndale1946, Nov 19, 2002
  6. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what the Word says.
     
    #6 ScottEmerson, Nov 19, 2002
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    As I wrote in a previous post this evening, here, I love all my children tremendously.

    That does not mean they will love me back as adults.

    But that does not stop me from loving them.

    Yes, God so loved the WORLD. Everyone is created in the image of God. Everyone is a unique individual cared for by God.
     
    #7 Helen, Nov 19, 2002
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Scott I bear to disagree the word doesn't say that either!... Why did Jesus say to the one thief... This day shalt thou be with me in paradise?... We never hear him say to the other one you are going to HELL but I still love you. Grace saved one and sinned doomed the other... We are talking about the logic of God not Men!... God is love and without God there is no love!... Logic of Men is Justice... Adam sinned and Adam and all that came from Adam end up in hell because Adam cannot love without God. There are no attributes of God in man without God! So man is hellbound world without end!... Brother Glen [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #8 tyndale1946, Nov 20, 2002
  9. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Glen, EVERY man is made in the image of God. EVERY man. That is why capital punishment is commanded by God in Genesis 9. Every man has some of the attributes of God as a spiritual being -- the ability to imagine, to conceptualize distant past or future, to express individuality in designing things. These, and so many more, are part of being created in the image of God. Our qualities are not nearly what the Original is! We are not and can never be as God is, so please don't mistake me, but when it is written that man is created in the image of God, that is not just the 'elect.'
     
    #9 Helen, Nov 20, 2002
  10. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    That is argument by omission. It is a logical fallacy. Just because Jesus didn't say anything doesn't mean he didn't love him. For all we know, it just wasn't recorded.

    If God is love, then how does he not show love to all of his creation, which the Bible says he does.

    That is bizarre logic that simply doesn't follow.
     
    #10 ScottEmerson, Nov 20, 2002
  11. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Does God love satan and the fallen angels who willfully disobeyed Him?
     
    #11 Travelsong, Nov 20, 2002
  12. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    It is clear that Paul is talking about the church here. Jesus demonstrted His love for His children in that He died for them while they were at emnity with God.
     
    #12 Travelsong, Nov 20, 2002
  13. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Travelsong, we are not His children until AFTER we are believers...John 1:12-13
     
    #13 Helen, Nov 20, 2002
  14. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Agreed, I wasn't saying otherwise. My point is that Jesus died for His children while they were yet sinners. The Bible makes this kind of distinction between the elect in their sinful state and the world for a reason. [​IMG]
     
    #14 Travelsong, Nov 20, 2002
  15. wjrighter

    wjrighter New Member

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    let me interject this : did Adam make a free will choice,since sin had not entered in to the picture just yet, for humans ? & if he had free will ,do we also have it? just wondering?
     
    #15 wjrighter, Nov 20, 2002
  16. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    The Bible makes great pains to say that Christ died for all men. Does this mean that Christ died for people God didn't love? Kinda strange.
     
    #16 ScottEmerson, Nov 20, 2002
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Adam was not created a sinner with a sin nature. We are born sinners with a sin nature.

    Ken

    [ November 20, 2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #17 KenH, Nov 20, 2002
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    No. Jesus died for His people, the elect, only.

    Ken
     
    #18 KenH, Nov 20, 2002
  19. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    No. Jesus died for His people, the elect, only.

    Ken    </font>[/QUOTE]Isaiah 53:6. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

    I John 2:1-2 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not, And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    (To which Calvin wrote: In fact, even Calvin in his later days wrote in regard to I John 2:2 as follows: "Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and in the goodness of God is offered unto all men without distinction, His blood being shed not for a part of the world only, but for the whole human race; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet He holds out the propitiation to the whole world, since without exception He summons all to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than the door unto hope." )

    2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

    I Timothy 4:10. "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe."

    Again, if God died for all men, then did he die for those he hated?
     
    #19 ScottEmerson, Nov 20, 2002
  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    This is how I happen to see it. IMO, the atoning sacrifice is sufficient to cover all. I don't see why this is a problem for either free-will or election.
     
    #20 npetreley, Nov 20, 2002
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