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Featured John 3:16

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Van, Oct 27, 2014.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Zoom! Right over your head!
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "Zoom, right over your head."

    "If a person cannot argue the issue he will usually try to argue the semantics. If he is too ignorant to argue the semantics he will usually try to argue personality."
     
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Okay, I will dumb it down for you.

    μονο means "one" or "only." We all agree on that.

    However, you have ignored the other half of the construct, γενους. You have failed to demonstrate the error of understanding γενους to mean generated, begotten, produced.

    "One and only" only translates half the word. "One unique" - although closer - fails to convey the concept of "generated, begotten or produced."

    In John 1.14 it is understood that "son" conveys the idea of "reproduction" or a re producing of a human in the normal, natural, historic sense.

    So, unless you understand that Christ's birth was accomplished by the common ordinary methods of human reproduction, there needs to be a definitive statement regarding the methodology of His supernatural conception.

    Granted such words as "begat and "begotten" are archaic but they are certainly not errors of translation.

    Verb, past tense of beget, Begat: (especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
    2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.

    Verb, Begotten: the past participle of beget.

    And the translators followed the historic use of the word as found in the best and most valuable of all Christian creeds and confessions.

    The Nicene Creed (First Council of Nicea 325AD)

    Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα, πάντων ὁρατῶν τε και ἀοράτων ποιητήν.

    Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ, γεννηθέντα ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς μονογενῆ, τοὐτέστιν ἐκ τῆς οὐσίας τοῦ Πατρός, θεὸν ἐκ θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα, οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί.

    (We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.)

    Affirmed by the The Niceno–Constantinopolitan Council of 381AD.

    Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.

    Καὶ εἰς ἕνα κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων, φῶς ἐκ φωτός, θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί·

    (We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.)

    The word "begotten" was considered very important to distinguish between "begotten" and "made." Christ was not "made" in the usual, natural, human sense. He was "begotten" IE, "generated" or "produced" in a supernatural manner.

    There are so many legitimate reasons to move on from the idiocy of KJVOism that it is not necessary to invent ill thought out, and highly inaccurate, issues that are nothing more than straw man arguments.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    hence the truth that those schoalrs who have chosen to regard Jesus as being the "only begotten" of the father did that tp perserve both His divinity and his unique stats as being the only Son of God!

    We are adopted into being such, but that has always been His very nature to be such///
     
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    But that is the point. He is NOT the "only Son of God." John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God.

    He is the only "begotten" Son of God. The only son generated or produced in a unique way.

    Many of the newer versions don't make that clear. I understand their reasons for avoiding what is mostly an archaic word, but they miss the point by not accounting for the γενους such as the ESV, (my personal favorite amount the newer versions except for the NKJV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son."
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for the clarification, as was trying to state that they chose to emphasis that while he is not the only son of God, the basis of His Sonship is the unique and only one, as He alone is "eternally God of eternal God"
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Tom, no need to dumb down your view. It is twaddle.

    I provided a footnote that explained what the word means, and you simply ignored it. Did I say it meant "one and only" or "one of a kind." One of a kind. So you ignore that and claim the translation you chose then ignored half the meaning. Talk about strawman argumentation.

    Did I say the translation of G1080 was a mistranslation? Nope. Here is what I actually said:
    So again, you claim I said one thing, when I said another. G1080 does not appear in the five verses I listed. Here again is what I actually said:
    You say the word "begotten" was important, but failed to say whether you were referring to G1080 or G3439? And to repeat what I said earlier, we should never mistranslate a word (i.e. G3439) in order to bolster a theological argument. For example, why not use Acts 13:33 when you make that point?
     
    #27 Van, Nov 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2014
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I am sorry you lack the educational acumen to understand. I made it as simple as I could but you still failed to understand.
    I didn't ignore it. I refuted it. It is, as you say, "twaddle."
    Yes, I know. That was not the point.
    No, I am the one who exegeted the second half of the construct.
    In case you were not aware of it there is no Greek word G1080. Nor is there a Greek word G3439. Those are Strong's numbers and everybody who has ever actually studied Greek knows that Strong falls far short of being accurate most of the time. He is guilty of the root fallacy in assuming etymological rigidity.

    And, again, in case you didn't fully understand, the word you transliterate as "gennaō" (actually the word is γεννάω meaning "to cause to be - generate - procreate" etymologically the word comes from the word γένος which means "kin" or "related to" and supposes genealogical descent, IE father/son, ancestor/descendent - and, again, interestingly enough the Greek word γεννάω is where we get the word "genealogical") and is the word form making up the second half of the construct μονογενη.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Tom, your smoke screen deflection does not have merit.

    Now you deny the numbering system used to identify Greek word groups.
    Pure evasion and shift of subject shuck and jive.

    1) First you insult me - indicating a lack of a substantial argument.
    2) Monogenes, G3439 was defined as meaning one of a kind. You did not refute that definition.
    3) Your argument was pointless, attacking a definition of your own construction, i.e. one and only, rather than one of a kind.
    4) I addressed the meaning of G1080, gennao,
    and then you post the same thing. Twaddle, shuck and jive, deflection.

    In summary, no matter how much deflection is posted, one of a kind best translates monogenes as found in John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, and 1 John 4:9. This view is presented in the NET, and reflects the position of Dr. Dan Wallace. You can claim your views go over his head till the cows come home. ROFLOL
     
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