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Featured John 3:19-21

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Mar 9, 2012.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You obviously did not read 2 Cor. 7:10! Go read it before commenting. There are two different types of "sorrow" identified by Paul in 2 Cor. 7:10. One is "worldly sorrow" that is "unto death" while the other is "godly sorrow" that is "unto salvation."

    Judas is an example of "worldly sorrow." He was convicted of his sins but his sorrow over sin was not unto salvation but unto death - he went out and hung himself.

    The Word of God has a natural convicting quality. However, when the scriptures come in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:5) without being accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit they produce only "worldly sorrow." Now worldly sorrow is conviction over sin but it not "unto salvation."

    On the other hand there is "godly sorrow" that occurs when the scriptures come "not in word only BUT in power and in the Holy Spirit" (1 Thes. 1:5). This is Holy Spirit power of conviction over sin which is "unto salvation."

    Now, to answer you question. The natural conviction of God's Word precedes salvation and so there is conviction over sin produced by the Word of God prior to salvation by the Word of God. However, the Word of God alone does not produce "godly sorrow" unto salvation. Godly sorrow is produced when the Word comes "in power and in the Holy Spirit".



    The sorrow that accompanies the Word of God precedes salvation. When the Holy Spirit empowers the Word regenerative life is produced and worldly sorrow turns into godly sorrow and repentance and faith in the gospel occurs.



    Israel was God's people as a chosen nation but they were not INDIVIDUALLY God's people by genuine salvation. It was God's chosen people who rejected Christ and who rejected all the prophets before Christ. You are confusing the people of God as a chosen nation with true saved Israelites like David, Daniel, Moses, etc. You are equating "the people of God" to be equal to saved people of God when that is not the case as even a casual reading of Deuteronomy and Numbers and judges, Chronicles and Kings easily demonstrates.

    Secondly, the fallen nature of a Jew is no different than the fallen nature of a Gentile - both are sinners by nature. No Jew is born into this world saved any more than any gentile is born into this world saved they are both born into this world equally unregenerated and lost. Hence, just because the individual Jew is of the chosen people of God does not mean he is a true child of God but is equally as lost as the Gentile! Hence, the MORAL DESCRIPTIONS given to describe Jews in the Old Testament are EQUALLY applicable to Gentiles as man is man regardless of their ethnicity. Isaiah 64:4-6 may be directly applied to Jews but it is equally descriptive of any other man of any other ethnicity because there is no difference when it comes to human nature and the fallen nature regardless of whom the verse may be directed toward!

    The righteousness of the Jew is no more "good" in the sight of God as the righteousness of the Gentile as they are MORALLY THE SAME becuase the moral nature of the Jew is no different than the moral nature of the Jew. This is what Romans 3:9-23 is all about, to prove there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE as there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jews or Gentiles when it comes to their moral nature they are born into this world with. Both are equally UNRIGHTEOUS before God by nature and so the righteousness of the lost Jew is as much filthy rags before God as the righteousness of the lost Gentile - both equally fall short of God's standard of righteousness and therefore there is no difference for all are sinners and all have sinned.

    Yes! However, moral issues are not restricted to any particular ethnicity and Isaiah 64:4-6 deals with moral issues common to the human nature.
     
    #41 The Biblicist, Mar 16, 2012
  2. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I am talking about godly sorrow! I am not talking about worldly sorrow, a worldly sorrow such as regretting that one is not rich, and famous, etc. Why in the world would you even start talking about worldly sorrow?

    I first said, "Calvinists believe that a person does not feel remorse until after Jesus saves them."

    You tried to say I was wrong for saying Calvinists believe that a person does not feel remorse until after Jesus saves them.

    Then you said, "There is a natural convicting power of the word of God that does not produce Godly sorrow unto salvation (seen in Judas). However, that is exactly what God uses upon the elect prior to regeneration. In regeneration there is a godly sorrow that leads to conversion. Regeneration and conversion are inseparable in time but not in logical order or in cause versus consequence relationship. However, all that is far too above your comphrension level.

    I am talking about remorse of sins before salvation. You said, "However, that is exactly what God uses upon the elect prior to regeneration. In regeneration there is a godly sorrow that leads to conversion."

    You just contradicted yourself. You said God does something prior to regeneration. Then you go on to say, “In regeneration there is a godly sorrow…” It cannot be both ways. In addition, you say I am wrong, and then go on to explain exactly what I said.
     
    #42 Moriah, Mar 17, 2012
  3. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    They were God’s people by works. They were God’s people if they obeyed the law of works. They had to be circumcised; they had to obey the law of works.

    They were God’s people! Even the wicked and evil Jews were called God’s people.
    God’s people, who were saved by the works of the law, they were cut off for unbelief in Jesus. Jesus tells the Jews that they will be cast out. Matthew 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
    Luke 13:28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

    They were saved, but they were thrown out. You do not believe the Truth.
     
    #43 Moriah, Mar 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2012
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    mor
    No, it means no one can learn and believe in God until they are Born Again ! Before that the person is alienated from the Life of God ! Dead !
     
    #44 savedbymercy, Mar 17, 2012
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, they were not God's people "by works" because they NEVER acheived the works demanded by God's law just as you never can either! If there is one thing that the New Testament apostles and Christ make very clear is that NO JEW ever did acheive by works what the Law demanded and therefore NO JEW ever attained being justified as His people by law keeping. They were NEVER justified by law keeping, NEVER saved by law keeping but the law was designed only to demonstrate they were sinners, unclean, lost and direct them to faith in Jesus Christ in order to be a true child of God rather than a mere professing child of God. If you cannot grasp this, you grasp absolutely NOTHING about the truth of salvation.

    Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
     
    #45 The Biblicist, Mar 17, 2012
  6. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    They had the law of works. They had external regulations for an earthly worship.

    They were God’s people! They had to follow the law of works. The works of the law is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations. See Hebrews 9:1, 10.
    They could not even worship God unless they were ceremonially clean.
    You are trying to dismiss the whole Old Testament.
    The Jews were God’s people, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. See Romans 9:4-5.

    The Gentiles were EXCLUDED. The Gentiles were WITHOUT God in the world, and WITHOUT Christ.
     
    #46 Moriah, Mar 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2012
  7. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    You quoted me saving what total depravity means, then explained the very same thing. Do you understand? You said, "No" to my explanation of total depravity, then you explained it with the same meaning I gave.
     
    #47 Moriah, Mar 17, 2012
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  8. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I said: “Total Depravity meaning no one can believe in God after learning of Him.”

    SBM said: “No, it means no one can learn and believe in God until they are Born Again ! Before that the person is alienated from the Life of God ! Dead !”

    Do you just like to argue and go against someone who speaks the truth?
     
    #48 Moriah, Mar 17, 2012
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So what? The Gentiles had the law written upon their conscience (Rom. 2:14-15) but trying to obey the law written on their conscience didn't save them or make them true children of God any more than the Jews trying to obey the Law.

    Didn't you read what Paul said in Acts 13:39????? Don't you beleive it????

    Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    So, the Jews could not be justified by keeping the law of Moses. Paul say "NO FLESH" can:

    Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Paul is inspired but YOU ARE NOT! I will take Paul's word over yours!


    You do not understand the Old Testament!!!! They were the CHOSEN NATION of God and God's people in that sense ONLY! They were not a SAVED NATION as God plainly tells Moses:

    4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
    5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

    Their obedience to the Law SAVED NO ONE, never did and never will! The purpose of the Law was to reveal their need of salvation by demonstrating through the law they cannot keep it and thus they are sinners and need a Savior or else they would be their OWN SAVIORS and their salvation would be their obedience to the law!

    You do not even understand the simple gospel, that the SAME GOSPEL of salvation was preached then as well as now and there is no other way of salvation then or now and NEVER by the law whether it is written on stone or written on conscience as the law was NEVER designed to save anyone or to justify anyone or to give eternal life to anyone because NO FLESH can obey its demands!

    You are teaching the very same false gospel the false teachers at Galatia did which Paul said was "accursed" - Gal. 1:6-9
     
    #49 The Biblicist, Mar 17, 2012
  10. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I guess it is only fair to tell you, I taught Paul everything he knew.

    [​IMG]

    Actually, I am trying to get to 7000 posts before I fall asleep. I still cannot sleep at night because of all those years on the midnight shift.
     
    #50 saturneptune, Mar 18, 2012
  11. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    Romans 2:14-15 is about SAVED GENTILES.
    No one was justified by the Law of Moses. However, the Jews, even when they turned from God, THEY WERE STILL GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE, THEY WERE STILL GOD’S CHILDREN. Gentiles WERE EXCLUDED. We are talking about a time before the hidden things were REVEALED. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES. GENTILES WERE UNCLEAN PEOPLE. Again, Gentiles were excluded and without God and Christ in the world. That is what the Bible says.

    Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

    You do not understand Paul.
    They had to keep God’s commands! You read this:

    Isaiah 30:9 These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the LORD's instruction. 10 They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions. 11 Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel!" 12 Therefore, this is what the Holy One of Israel says: "Because you have rejected this message, relied on oppression and depended on deceit, 13 this sin will become for you like a high wall, cracked and bulging, that collapses suddenly, in an instant. 14 It will break in pieces like pottery, shattered so mercilessly that among its pieces not a fragment will be found for taking coals from a hearth or scooping water out of a cistern." 15 This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it. 16 You said, 'No, we will flee on horses.' Therefore you will flee! You said, 'We will ride off on swift horses.' Therefore your pursuers will be swift! 17 A thousand will flee at the threat of one; at the threat of five you will all flee away, till you are left like a flagstaff on a mountaintop, like a banner on a hill." 18 Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for him! 19 O people of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you.


    That is why we need a Savior. That is why we have a Savior, Jesus Christ. There is no such thing as all humans being totally depraved as taught by Calvinists. Jesus died for all to have a chance to be saved.
    Be careful how you judge, it could be the very thing in which you are judged.
     
    #51 Moriah, Mar 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2012
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