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Featured John 6:36-39

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, May 31, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Nothing worth to comment about
     
    #21 The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2013
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  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Back on track again. This passage explcitly asserts OSAS and explicitly denies OSAL (once saved and lost). 100% given are 100% that come who are 100% without a single loss.
     
    #22 The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2013
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Thanks again for proving my point.

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled conversation with yourself...
     
    #23 webdog, Jun 4, 2013
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    All you are doing is trying to start a fight. That is why I said your comments are not worth responding to because fighting just to fight is silly. You have nothing you want to discuss about this OP so why not drop it? You intentionally interjected yourself into a conversation between Gup and myself not to provide any worth while information or commentary but rather to simply insult me. Don't you have anything better to do? DHK gave us a warning and I am trying to stay out of this kind of personal issues. May we just drop this thing?
     
    #24 The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2013
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  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The primary challenge in any debate is to find a text that clearly and unambigously expresses your point without the possibility of any contextual problems. John 6:36-40 provides such a text that accomplishes that challenge in regard to defending OSAS.

    That is why those who oppose OSAS do not want to enter into a contextual debate over this text. They would rather change the optics to another text where there is more ambiguity and therefore more room to manuever.
     
    #25 The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2013
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Hardly. Just pointing out your inconsistency and reiterating that which was already stated, you erect straw men and then do a noble job in blowing them over. That's not starting any fights, and if you think that is, you either need to grow thicker skin or take your private conversations with yourself to PM if you want nobody to point them out or interact with you. If you are looking for only comments that agree with you, the debate forum is probably not the right place for you.
     
    #26 webdog, Jun 4, 2013
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Look at this OP and the discussion that preceded your interjection! Was anyone insulting anyone else? No! You came on only to make an insult - look at your first post! So don't lecture me on something you are guilty of doing. If you have something worth while to post, then do it but so far you are just making insults and accusations that have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS OP.
     
    #27 The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2013
  8. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Jesus chose Judas Iscariot. For you to have this interpretation (or exposition or whatever you want to call it), you would have to agree, then, that Judas Iscariot was saved, and is in heaven now.

    Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
    71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.​

    But the idea of Judas being in heaven seems contrary to scripture:

    Mat 26:24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."​

    Frankly, I just don't see OSAS in this passage at all.
     
    #28 Gup20, Jun 4, 2013
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  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Read the entire context about Judas. Start in verse 64. John says Judas was never a beleiver from the beginning.

    If 100% given come and 100% come are never lost, and that is precisely what Jesus says in John 6:37-39 then how in the world can you deny he is teaching explicitly All truly save remain saved????????????? Your response does not make sense.
     
    #29 The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2013
  10. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    So what you are telling me, then, is that Jesus chose Judas, but since Judas did not believe, he was lost. Got it. I agree. :thumbs:
     
    #30 Gup20, Jun 5, 2013
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Did you read John 6:64? Judas is classified by Christ among those whom Jesus knew were FALSE PROFESSORS from the very beginning! That is why he repeats John 6:44 in verse 65. The Father never gave Judas or any of these false disciples to him. ALL the father gives He "SHALL LOSE NOTHING" of ALL. That is a clear repudiation that Judas was ever given to him by the Father and so his coming to Christ was not of the Father's doing but of Satan's on a FALSE PROFESSION. Don't you know what a "tare" is? Tares are professing Christians who never were born again but have merely a religious profession (1 Jn. 2:19). Their departure from the faith manifests their true nature - never born again - 1 Jn. 2:19
     
    #31 The Biblicist, Jun 5, 2013
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  12. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I guess I'm still not seeing it. It your interpretation requires some mental gymnastics that seem counter intuitive to what it's trying to say. It seems like you are more interested in proof-texting this to fit your global scriptural bias (ie Calvinism) than really listening to what it actually says. You shouldn't have to isolate it from scripture and then twist it to get it to agree with your worldview.

    I guess I can't do that with you.
     
    #32 Gup20, Jun 5, 2013
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Really??? What kind of mental gynastics does it require to simply take him at these words:

    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    QUESTIONS:

    1. Did Jesus know who among his disciples were unbelievers? yes or no?
    2. Did Jesus know this "from the beginning"? yes or no?
    3. Is Judas classified among this group? yes or no?
    4. Is verse 65 given as explanatory of why they did not believe "from the beginning" or is the words "therefore said I unto you" simply empty rhetoric? yes or no?

    5. Does Jesus claim that "OF ALL" which the Fahter gives "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"? yes or no?


    Please tell me what is difficult about this? Where are the mental gynastics????
     
    #33 The Biblicist, Jun 5, 2013
  14. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    "1. Did Jesus know who among his disciples were unbelievers? yes or no?"​

    Yes.

    "2. Did Jesus know this "from the beginning"? yes or no?"​

    Yes.

    "3. Is Judas classified among this group? yes or no?"​

    Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps it means He knew 2 things: who were unbelievers and who would be betray him, or he knew 1 thing who were unbelievers and Judas, the one who would betray him. It's not exactly clear, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say "yes" to this.

    "4. Is verse 65 given as explanatory of why they did not believe "from the beginning" or is the words "therefore said I unto you" simply empty rhetoric? yes or no?"​

    No, it isn't explaining why they don't believe - their not believing is explaining why they may not come to Him. It doesn't speak to WHY they don't believe, it speaks to WHY they may not come (because they don't believe).

    "5. Does Jesus claim that "OF ALL" which the Fahter gives "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"? yes or no?"​

    Yes, but he isn't referring to people, but the things God wants him to do.

    Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
    39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
    40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."​

    Verse 39 refers not to people, but to the things God has given Him to do. It doesn't use personal pronouns like "him" or "them", but uses "it". This is demonstrable by the fact that Verse 40 stands as a stark contrast and says "everyone" and uses the pronoun "him."

    There is still no direct correlation between OSAS and this scripture. It is a leap of the imagination. At most it tells us why people can't come to Jesus - because they don't believe, but it is an unwarranted expansion to say that the reverse - that they don't believe because God didn't allow them to come - is true.
     
    #34 Gup20, Jun 5, 2013
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Look at John 6:44 and 65 carefully and answer these questions:

    1. Is coming to Christ dependent upon being drawn by the Father or is being drawn dependent upon coming to Christ? - v. 44 - which is the cause and which is the consequence?

    2. Is coming to Christ dependent upon being given by the Father to Christ or coming to Christ? - v. 65

    The previous context of John 6:36-40 defines "coming" as believing in Christ or coming to Christ in faith.

    3. Does the word "therefore" indicate a conclusion is being drawn or a statement is being made in verse 65.




    Do you realize that the very same Greek word translated "it" in verse 39 is the very same word translated "him" in verses 40, 44, and 54 and all four in the very same phrase speaking of the very same thing?

    So what is "resurrected" in the last day? Things? or People?

    Did God give "things" or people to Christ in verse 37?

    Did God give "things" or people to Christ in verse 39?

    Is it God's will that Christ "SHALL LOSE NOTHING" of the "things" or people given to him by the Father in verse 29?

    Is it God's will that "things" or people are raised up in verse 40?​
     
    #35 The Biblicist, Jun 5, 2013
  16. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Jhn 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
    65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

    No one can come (unless granted from the Father) BECAUSE they do not believe.

    The REASON for not coming is unbelief.

    Here is how you are reading it:

    Biblicist 6:64 "But there are some of you can not come to me." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who could not come, and who it was that would betray Him.
    65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one will believe in me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​
     
    #36 Gup20, Jun 5, 2013
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The word "beleive" in vere 64 is synonmous with the word "come to me" in verse 65. Sorry, but that is the common understanding of that word throughout the gospels. To come to Christ means to believe in Christ, He is not talking about moving from one geographical location to another geographical location.

    To "come to me" is synonmous with "believe on him." That is what it means throughout the gospels and particular the gospel of John. That is how John uses it in Revelation 22:17 where there is general agreement that the threefold exhortation to "come.....come....let him take of the water of life freely" is synonmous with "believe in Christ."
     
    #37 The Biblicist, Jun 5, 2013
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    When Jesus exhorts people to "come unto me" that is a useless exhortation if they had already come to him.

    The fact is they are headed in an opposite direction and need to turn around (repentance) and come to Christ (faith). Only when they are "heavy burdened" and "laden" with sin will they turn around from the direction they are going (repentance) and come to Christ (faith).
     
    #38 The Biblicist, Jun 5, 2013
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