John 6:37

Hey Bob,

Thanks for your questions ...

*Very important - Nicodemus was a Jew. He had a thoroughly Jewish worldview. He was speaking for the Jews, and was thinking in very Jewish terms as he came to Jesus in this encounter*

v. 3: He never got the question off to Jesus. Jesus declares, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above." First remember; this is a very Jewish truth: the Messianic Millennial Kingdom will only be seen by those who are transferred out of the kingdom of darkness, and into the kingdom of the Son of His love). And this will only happen by a supernatural, spiritual birth. Notice the order. Men must first be born from above and given spiritual life. Then they are able to see and believe. And all who are given spiritual life, do come to believe as evidenced in John 6.
- John 6:37: All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
- John 6:44: No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.

This verse (3:3) clearly teaches the doctrine of Total Depravity (spiritual deadness). It also teaches the doctrine of Regeneration (spiritual birth).

v. 4: Nic asks the logical question: How can an old person be born again (physically?)

v. 5: Jesus' tells him that entrance into the kingdom will require both a physical birth, and a spiritual birth.

v. 6: Mom's and Dad's (as a second cause) give physical life. But God gives spiritual life by agency of His Holy Spirit.

v. 7: This shouldn't surprise you Nic (you should know Deuteronomy 30:1-6, Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 by heart).

v. 8: The Spirit is sovereign in this … He blows where He WISHES (He has free will!)

v. 9-10: Nic is still having trouble with this idea.

v. 11-13: This is Jesus confronting Nic with the dominating question of the Gospels: Who do you say that I am, and from where do I come?

Down to vs. 16:

1) “So” is best understood as “in this manner” rather than the common “sooo much.” In other words, not "How much did God love the world?" But instead "How did God love the world?" The way that God loved the world was by giving His unique Son.

Remember, Jesus was addressing a Jew, steeped in the Jewish idea that salvation was only for those in the nation (the physical sons of Abraham, through Isaac, and Jacob). When Jesus says, "in this way, God loved the world" the emphasis should be on the word "world."
"For this is the way that God set His love upon the world, Nicodemus (not just upon the Jews, but also among the Gentiles). I know that is hard for you to grasp Nicodemus, with your Jewish preconceptions. But He loved not just the believing ones among you Jews, but also the believing ones among the Gentiles!"

2) There is no "whosoever" in the Greek text. Instead there is a participle - "the believing ones"

Hope this helps …

Final Rendering of John 3:16-17 (as understood by dattgog):

For this is the way that God set His love upon not only the believing Jews, but also the believing Gentiles (the believing ones from every tribe, tongue, and nation) … He gave His unique Son that all believing ones would be saved. For God did not send His Son to the Jews and Gentiles to condemn the Jews and the Gentiles (they were already condemned by their sin), but that the believing Jews and Gentiles, through Him, would be saved.

Bob wrote:

Dattgog,

In your enthusiastic support for the idea "God so loved the FEW that He gave His only Son" - how do account for WHICH FEW God chose to "so love"?

Is it their looks?
- Nope: That would be eternal life by merit. I.e. "You looked nice, so you merited My love"
- We know that is unbiblical.

Their Family connections?
- Nope: That would contradict John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 WHO WERE BORN, NOT OF BLOOD, nor of the will of the flesh (interesting) nor of the will of man (interesting), but of God.

Their talents?
- Nope: Then eternal life is merited by works

Their ability to live for God?
- Nope: Then eternal is merited by works
________________________________________________

We could add...

Their free will?
- Nope: John 1:13 ...who were born not of blood, nor of the WILL of the flesh (interesting) nor of the WILL of man (interesting), BUT OF GOD.

Their decision to receive Christ?
- Nope: That would be eternal life by works

The "few He chose to love" were chosen (Rom. 3:24) "freely." The word here is also found in John 15:25. It is translated there, "without a cause." God set His love upon a certain number "without a cause" in them. The cause was in God ... namely His good pleasure and His grace. But I know this, "He has mercy on whom He has mercy."

I hope this answers your questions ... any thoughts are welcomed.

P.S. Npetreley, thanks for the correction / clarification. I believe my premise was right, but I don't want to misstate what the text says!

 

dattgog,

You do not like the three last words of my first statement That's fine. So the definition should be like this. Here it is. 'Propitiation means the placating of the personal wrath of God.' This is a fair theological statement.

The problem for Calvinists types is that they acknowledge I John 2:2a but try to destroy the integrity of Scripture in 2:2b and c. And what might those two most powerful phrases reveal? The death of Christ was not only for those who will believe but would have effectively saved every human, sinful soul. Calvinists are like the ostrich who thinks he is hid when he hides his head in the sand.

While limited atonement might fly at a Reformation Theology {conference} it is the worst of Biblical interpretations.

Jesus wishes all sinners to be saved. [I Timothy 2:4] and His ransom is for all sinners. [I Timothy 2:6 & II Peter 3:18]

Not all sinners will be saved but it cannot be laid at His feet as being the responsible Person for the majority walking through the gates into Hell. [John 3:16]

The Apostle John was convinced that 'he had seen and did testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.' [I John 4:14] Planet earth does not need saving any more than Venus or Mars, but all sinners are in need of this Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

Dattgog - admitting that you are a sinner and cant save yourself, and seeing that God can do so and you ask Him to do so counts as a work?

Nuh

- In a burning building yelling for help - does not count as saving yourself
- Drowning in a river screaming for help does not count as saving yourself
- Screaming for help from a twisted car wreck as your life ebbs away does not count as saving yourself
- especially if you die would your tombstone read

- He screamed real loud?

A work is something that saves you or has merit.

 

Ray,

Not all Calvinists (including Calvin!) believe that Christ died only for the elect. Calvin believed that Christ did die for all and payed the penalty for sin for all.

Calvin rejected this statement twice: "Jesus' death was sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect." He rejected it because he believed that Christ's death on the cross was more substantial for sinners than just being sufficient. His death literally paid the penalty for sin for all sinners!

So you need to distinguish between Calvinists! There are many Calvinists who believe that Christ died for the sins of all sinners. Yes, I know that some Calvinists believe that Christ died only for the elect, but not all Calvinists believe this.

Calvin believed that though the penalty for sin was paid for at the cross, it is only applied to a person when Christ makes intercession for that person at the Father's right hand.

Would you agree with this?

 

Sularis,

Thanks for the drama.

I do not know where you are going with this statement but a faith trust in Jesus for forgiveness is not a work. Faith is a man or woman's response to God's proffered gift of everlasting life. Christ has a perfect sacrifice for our sins on the Cross; man does not need to do or complete any work to obtain salvation. Grace has been offered by God in Christ; it is not of works lest any person should boast. [Ephesians 2:8-9] If there were anything inherently wrong with accepting or receiving His gift He would have told us this in the Bible, God's Word. All He requires from sinners is believing the Gospel story. After the work of the Spirit on the life and mind of the sinner, He desires faith from us, because ' . . . without faith it is impossible to please Him . . . ' [Hebrews 11:6]

Free grace comes from the Lord; faith must come from the lost toward the Savior.

 

Gene, others,

The atonement is actual and it is for all, but this does not lead to universalism because it is not effectual until Christ intercedes on the sinner's behalf.

The proof: 1 John 2:5. They don't obey [repent]. Some reject the payment of sin on their behalf by Christ. This is what God foreknew in the counsel of his will before the foundation of the world in regards to potential persons! When these potential persons are actually created, they by their own choice, yet foreknown by God, persist in their rebellion of God rejecting Christ's payment for their sins.

A ransom for many. Yes, because not all are ransomed. Some refuse to be ransomed by Christ.

Unjust of God to not forgive those when payment has been made? No. They are doubly culpable, as Calvin said. First for their own sins, and then again in rejecting the payment of sin on their behalf.

Example: Tickets bought for the whole class to attend a play. But some refuse the ticket purchased on their behalf, and since they cannot purchase one for themselves, they are not allowed in to see the play. Doubly culpable!

Salvation a complete gift? Yes, because God desires none to perish. He lifts up Christ drawing all men to himself. He starts the process for everyone, and the only way not to be saved is to reject what He desires for you and has secured for you in his Son's death. Therefore, no one can boast. You did nothing. You were passive. God is not partial. God is glorified and praised for his grace and mercy.

If lost, it is because you rejected God's plan for you. You are responsible. You are doubly culpable. You are to blame. (Luke 7:30, Romans 2:5).

 

My concern for Calvinists is that we (they) don't take seriously the Scriptures that teach that election is conditioned on two things: 1.)God's foreknowledge and 2.) being in Christ.

God elects those who are in Christ.
God elects those whom he foreknew.

This failure results in misinterpreting the atonement of Christ.

My concern for Arminians is that they don't take seriously the Scriptures that teach that God makes decisions in the counsel of his will before time began. They fail to see how God can pass over some and yet not interfere with man's will, and therefore lay the charge against Calvinism that the God of Calvinism is partial (arbitrary).

My concern for both Calvinists and Arminians is a failure to understand that salvation is a gift of God that is accomplished by God on our behalf not because we respond but because we don't resist! God draws all men because no one can respond or accept. But dispite this drawing, some will still resist.

If there is a mystery, it is "Why do some resist?"

I think the above explanation most adequately accounts for all of the Scriptures that pertain.

Total depravity: Yes, man cannot save himself. So God draws him.

Unconditional election: Yes in that it is not conditioned on man's merit. No in that it is conditioned by the counsel of God's will in regards to foreknowledge and being in Christ.

Limited atonement: No and Yes. Universal death (actual payment for all), limited intercession (actual application by Christ for elect). Christ died actually for the sins of the whole world. He paid the penalty for all sin. But to those who reject his death on their behalf, they are doubly culpable. He does not make intercession for them at the Father's right hand. Since he does not intercede, they are not declared righteous (justified) by the Father.

Efficacious Grace. Yes. For the elect, God's grace is efficacious. They will come. For the nonelect, God's grace will result in hardening their hearts.

Perseverance of the Saints. Yes. The elect will persevere to the end. Others will be told that they were never known by Christ, or will fall away.

 

Sularis,

You're explanation neglects one minor detail. Corpses can't scream. And since Paul said we are "dead" in trespasses and sins, and Jesus said you must be "born from above" to be saved, our calling out or crying out can't save us at all ... biblically speaking. See here is the problem. According to your theology, faith must be a work. It is what ultimately effects regeneration. In other words, you logically must believe that a dead man believes in order to be born again. That absolutely flips Scripture on its head, and it absolutely makes faith a meritorious work. Scripture on the other hand is clear. It states very clearly that regeneration or the new birth comes first and CAUSES faith.

It is by grace you have been saved through faith AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELF. IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. (Eph. 2:8-9)

Now think. A baby doesn't do anything to be born. But once it is born, it responds. You're suggesting that a spiritual corpse does something which causes it to be born. I'm just suggesting that Scripture teaches that a spiritual corpse must first be made alive before it can do anything.

Rom. 8:7 says that an unregenerate man cannot subject himself to the law of God. You say he can and must to be saved.

Rom. 8:8 says that an unregenerate man cannot do anything to please God. You say he can and must to be saved.

1 Cor. 2:14 says that an unregenerate man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. You say he can and must to be saved.

Jn 3:3 - Jesus says that you must be born before you can even see the kingdom. You say, "wrong, you must see the kingdom, love the king, and believe so that you can then be made alive spiritually."

Ever looked at the Greek behind 1 John 5:1.

"The one believing (presently) that Jesus is the Christ has been (in a past completed action) born of God."

So no, faith is not a work in my understanding. It is a gift to a new creation. Born first, which causes belief. Philippians 1:29 says of Christians that it has been granted to them to believe. A corpse has no free will or any will at all for that matter. He's enslaved to death.

Lazarus is a good example.
1) He was dead ... incapable of remedying his situation.
2) Jesus opened his eyes, his ears, caused his body to function again, infused him with life.
3) Then Jesus called him forth (not every corpse in the graveyard).
4) He responded by coming to Jesus.

What most evangelicals would have say today.
1) Lazarus was dead, but had some ability to aid in his resurrection.
2) Lazarus came to Jesus who then responded by giving him life.

And I've heard it so many times, "yeah but a gift is not a gift until one receives it." Man this isn't a $100 bill. This gift is the gift of life. You have already received it by the time you can make any decisions at all. The only reason you care to come is that you've already received the new birth.

You know ... no wonder Jesus is called the "originator" and "completer" of faith.

Now think about what Ray wrote ...
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Ray: Faith is a man or woman's response to God's proffered gift of everlasting life.
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- If faith causes regeneration then it is a work. If faith is caused by regeneration then it is a gift.

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Ray: Christ has a perfect sacrifice for our sins on the Cross;
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- If by "our" you mean the "many" of Mark 10:45, I agree.
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Ray: man does not need to do or complete any work to obtain salvation.
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- completely correct
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Ray: Grace has been offered by God in Christ;
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- Unbiblical. Nowhere in Scripture is grace ever offered. Grace means obtaining something benevolent that you don't deserve and couldn't earn. If grace is offered, it requires something ... a work to receive it. Grace is not offered. It is bestowed upon.

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Ray: it is not of works lest any person should boast. [Ephesians 2:8-9]
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- Yet you guys proudly make faith a work that effects spiritual life instead of a gift that comes when spiritual life is granted.
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Ray: If there were anything inherently wrong with accepting or receiving His gift He would have told us this in the Bible, God's Word.
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- Whether or not accepting or receiving His gift is not the question. Of course a man must believe. The question is "how can a corpse believe?" Answer: He can't, unless he is no longer a corpse.
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Ray: All He requires
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- I say that He grants to His elect what He requires. You say that man left to himself somehow attains to what God requires. That is works!
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Ray: All He requires from sinners is believing the Gospel story. After the work of the Spirit on the life and mind of the sinner, He desires faith from us, because ' . . . without faith it is impossible to please Him . . . ' [Hebrews 11:6]
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- Yep. And Jesus is the Author and Finisher (beginning to end) of faith. In your theology, I'm the author of faith. And since we're quoting Hebrews, in chapter 6, the author tells the Hebrews to leave the Old Covenant types and ceremonies, and to go on to perfection (telios), completion, salvation, belief into Christ. And wonder of wonders, vs. 3: "And this we will do IF GOD PERMITS."
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Ray: Free grace comes from the Lord; faith must come from the lost toward the Savior.
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Now Ray, the Bible says clearly that faith comes from God in at least 4 places. Ephesians 2:8-9 which we've already quoted. Hebrews 12:2 which I've already quoted. Philippians 1:29 which I've already quoted and 2 Peter 1:1 where Peter says we've "obtained or received like precious faith."

So let me ask ... does regeneration cause faith (thus making faith a gift) or does faith cause regeneration (thus making faith a work)?

Thanks Guys!

 

Oh, we get it. Almighty God first regenerated Nicodemus and then went about explaining to him what He did to and in him. He explained it was not exactly like a physical birth. After rebuking Nicodemus for being 'a ruler of the Jews--a Pharisee and yet not understanding this experience in faith, He continued by explaining Moses 'serpent in the wilderness. In Numbers 21:8 anyone bitten by the snake could look up to 'the fiery serpent on the pole, and by that personal act would be healed.

We are all bitten by Original sin and acts of sin. Jesus tells us that He ' . . . so loved sinners that ' . . . whoever believes in Jesus will not perish, but will be given everlasting life.' [John 3:16]

Nicodemus was not so spiritually blind/dead/Totally Depraved that he did not understand that Jesus was from God and did many miracles. Why? Because God created Nicodemus after the image of God. [James 3:9] This Pharisee was impressed with Jesus' miracle working power and called Him Rabbi meaning teacher. Drs. Boice and Sproul have their order of regeneration inverted. Jesus presented the plan the way to eternal life and then called on this Pharisee to believe. [John 3:16] Why believe and trust in Christ if God has autocratically changed the heart of a man or woman before the theological lecture?

Could anyone think that the late Dr. Boice would teach anything other than what his denomination taught him and probably from the partial and philosophical minds at Westminster Theological Seminary?

WTS is a Christian institution but much of their theology has been tainted by the Catholic, Reformation Theology coming out of the time period of 1517.

 

dattgog,

If you lived in my medieval kingdom and I were the true God I could decree that on Friday all subjects had to bow the knee to me in veneration and it would happen not requiring your personal decision in this matter. My point is that to decree something requires no response from the created being, period. Thus, if God decrees some to Heaven and the remainer to Hell, He does not need even our faith or lack of faith to do what He has deemed to do toward His created human sinners. The Calvinists seeing that faith is in the Bible, then hurries about to 'patch up their theology' so it makes some semblance of sense.

 

Ray,
You raised a number of straw men in your last post. It was filled with things that have nothing to do with the issue (Like Jesus saying that they "would" not come, which every Calvinist believes.)
Ezekiel 33 (which is not a didactic portion of scripture which purpose is to explain salvation) is the place we have come to from John 6:37. The reason people die in their sins is because they do not turn. Who would deny this?
In I Sam, we read that God did take "pleasure" in the death of the wicked. It was still the sinners fault. I can accept both, what do you think about the second passage?
Back to John 6:37, how are these people said to be given to the Son prior to their coming in faith?

In Christ

 

dattgog,

I already explained Ephesians 2:8-9. As to Hebrews 12:2 I gladly agree with you that grace is initiated by our Lord. He is the Author of our faith. God does not need faith nor does He autocratically hand it out only the elect. It is the opposite of what you have said. The writer of Hebrews calls the grace that he has been given, 'our faith' or my faith. It is God's grace but not His faith disseminated to only certain people.

Philippians 1:29. Dr. Robert H. Hounce, Th.M., Ph.D. Associate Professor of biblical Literature and Greek, Bethel College and Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota says, in "The Wycliffe Bible Commentary" Moody Press, p. 1324. 'It is given . . . ' could be more literally translated, 'It has been graciously conferred (charizomai is the verb form of charis, "grace"). 'The privilege of suffering for Christ is the privilege of doing the kind of work for Him that is important enough to merit the world's counterattack.' {Simcox, p 61}. Dr. C.E. Simcox, "They Met at Philippi" New York: Oxford University Press. 1958, p. 61. Thus the correct reading, 'It has been graciously conferred, on behalf of Christ, not only in Him to believe, but also on behalf of Him to suffer.' It is only because of Christ that anyone can believe in Jesus and also suffer for Him.

II Peter 1:1. Yes, we also have obtained like precious faith with the great Apostle Peter. Our faith in Jesus is in response to His calling to grace and eternal life.

And here are three new verses for you. In I Peter chapter one you will find three verses that do not say the faith given to us from the Lord as a free gift, but rather Peter speaks of 'your faith' as though it originated in the repentant sinner. Note: vss. 7,9,21.

'That the trail of your faith, being much more precious than gold . . . '

'Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'

' . . . that your faith and hope might be in God.'

There is not one trace of evidence that God gives select people their faith. Faith is always a freedom of the will to trust in Jesus as Savior; an activity of the mind and heart of a lost soul who has been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

 

Sorry, it should have read: Dr. Robert H. Mounce in my most recent post.

 

O boy, where do I begin ...
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Ray: Oh, we get it. Almighty God first regenerated Nicodemus and then went about explaining to him what He did to and in him.
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No Ray, you don't get it. I never said that this event was Nicodemous' new birth. The text says nothing about that. This is the account of Jesus explaining the new birth to Nicodemous (i.e. ... how one is saved). I do believe that at some point Nic was made alive and came to repent and believe the things that Jesus taught him on this day.
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Ray: He explained it was not exactly like a physical birth.
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Correct, but it is a birth nonetheless ~ not a decision.
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Ray: After rebuking Nicodemus for being 'a ruler of the Jews--a Pharisee and yet not understanding this experience in faith ...
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He actually rebuked Nic for not understanding the new birth (which was clearly taught in Nic's Old Testament) and the idea of looking to Christ. But again, the order is new birth first and then looking to Christ.
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Ray: He continued by explaining Moses 'serpent in the wilderness. In Numbers 21:8 anyone bitten by the snake could look up to 'the fiery serpent on the pole, and by that personal act would be healed.
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Absolutely, just as I teach that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, whosoever will may come to Christ, and the one who comes to Him He will in no wise cast out.
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Ray: We are all bitten by Original sin and acts of sin. Jesus tells us that He ' . . . so loved sinners that ' . . . whoever believes in Jesus will not perish, but will be given everlasting life.' [John 3:16]
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Absolutely we are all "bitten by original sin" and acts of sin. We are also dead in Adam, killed by original sin and apart from being born again, made alive, etc. we cannot look to Jesus.
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Ray: Nicodemus was not so spiritually blind/dead/Totally Depraved that he did not understand that Jesus was from God and did many miracles.
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Maybe not, but if he had any spiritual understanding it is only because his eyes, ears and heart had been opened ... you know like Lydia's in Acts 16, like Paul's in Acts 9, etc. If this was Nicodemous' new birth, then just as the Scripture says repeatedly, he was made alive by grace and brought to faith.
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Ray: Why? Because God created Nicodemus after the image of God. [James 3:9]
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What does that have to do with anything?
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Ray: This Pharisee was impressed with Jesus' miracle working power and called Him Rabbi meaning teacher. Drs. Boice and Sproul have their order of regeneration inverted. Jesus presented the plan the way to eternal life and then called on this Pharisee to believe. [John 3:16]
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Ray do you understand that the way to eternal life is to be born from above ... why can't you see that. And what do born people do ... they believe. In fact Jesus didn't call on Nic to believe. He stated a fact ... believing ones don't perish, they have everlasting life. That is a fact, believing ones do not perish. And why do they believe? Because they've been born from above.
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Ray: Why believe and trust in Christ if God has autocratically changed the heart of a man or woman before the theological lecture?
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Because Ray, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. New creations MUST believe. But new creations WILL believe. But how can they believe what they have not heard?
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Ray: Could anyone think that the late Dr. Boice would teach anything other than what his denomination taught him and probably from the partial and philosophical minds at Westminster Theological Seminary?
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I couldn't care less! I spent the first 29 years of my life in a SBC church. Not one of them taught the Scriptural doctrines of grace. My traditions or James Boice's for that matter have nothing to do with what Scripture teaches.
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Ray: WTS is a Christian institution but much of their theology has been tainted by the Catholic, Reformation Theology coming out of the time period of 1517.
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I assume you're not a Protestant. They were protesting salvation by works and affirming salvation by grace.

I don't have time to answer your entire next post, but I will point out some important issues.

1) Hebrews 12:2 in Greek doesn't have the pronoun "our" before the word faith. It just says the "author and perfector of faith."

2) Even if there are references to "our" faith or "your" faith (and of course there are) that has nothing whatsoever to do with my premise. It is "your" faith. It just did not originate with your "free will." It is a gift granted to God's elect. And if it did originate within fallen man, boast away. Thank yourself for your belief.

Hey Ray, if a pair of twins sit through all the same sermons, have every single life experience that the other has and then both die in a car accident at age 25, if one goes to heaven and one goes to hell, what is the reason that the one believed?

Was he smarter? Was he wiser? Was he more spiritual?

Thanks Again ...

 

dattgog,

As to the new birth it is a decision first and then the experience of eternal life follows. Here is why it is a decision. Because in Acts 2:21 the sinner must call on the Name of the Lord, first to be saved. The lost soul is not born again first and then we Christians explain to him what happened. Maybe the word decision is poorly chosen but the sinner must repent and believe the Gospel before the indwelling takes place.

I know you will not be able to give me one verse under the Old Testament where Nicodemus should have read about the 'new birth.' O.T. people did not look to Christ but rather to Jehovah Lord.

Apart from looking to Jesus there is no salvation. Paul and Silas did not say, "Now you are saved and you are about to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The Word of God says most clearly, believe in the Lord and then you will be saved. [Acts 16:31]

Nicodemus was not so spiritually blind/dead/Totally Depraved that he did not understand that Jesus was from God and did many miracles. I'm pleased that one of you Calvinists finally admitted that spiritual insight can take place before salvation.

As for Lydia she was saved before Paul and Silas met her, otherwise she would not have been at prayer on the Sabbath at the side of the river. She was worshipping God as they arrived at the riverside. What the Lord and Paul explained was water baptism not only for her but for her household, which many believe may have been children or even an infant. 'The Lord opened her heart' to understand that all Christian believers should be baptized. [Acts 16:13-15]

As to Acts nine the Lord dealt with Saul with the brightness of the light from Heaven. Saul was not saved until he responded, 'Lord, what will You have me to do?'

Why? Because God created Nicodemus after the image of God.[James 3:9]

We have been tainted by depravity but we are created much like our Lord. We have a mind, will, and personality. We have a conscience before coming to Christ and we can be move by the Spirit of God to receive His Son. Even after the Fall and Flood God says in Genesis nine that ' . . . for in the image of God made He man.' Total Depravity is a misnomer a misidentification as to who a sinner really is outside of Christ's new life.

Sinners believe in Jesus because they are called to Christ. They believe because they have a clear mind to understand the Gospel story. They can believe because God desires all sinners to be saved eternally. [I Timothy 2:4]

I agree that the Scripture is the final authority. With no hurt intended the five points of Calvinism are a disgrace and most clearly not the 'doctrines of grace' that you suggest. Defaming God as being unloving, unjust, and unmerciful toward all lost souls is an unthinkable atrocity and outrage.

WTS is a Christian institution but much of their theology has been tainted by the Catholic, Reformation Theology coming out of the time period of 1517.

No, I am a Protestant and have preached the evangelical Gospel in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and North Carolina. All praise goes to Him.

Thanks for pointing this out; I never noticed that from the Greek. Good point.

As I said God calls us to faith and only then can we believe in Jesus. His grace is the gift while faith is our repentant response to His solemn drawing. If a person never believes in Jesus they will never be saved. The Lord is not troubled when we might say, "The Lord love me and drew me to Himself and I believed in His precious gift of everlasting life." Now and when I get to Heaven I will eternally thank Him for His grace and will be glad that I did accept Christ or I would have been damned.

The seed of the Gospel fell on the one twin-the 'good ground' while the same seed of the Gospel 'fell by the wayside,' the life of the twin who ignored or refused Jesus. [Matthew 13:3-9] The first twin was wiser. No one is wise who neglects or rebels against the Lord.

A brother in Christ,
Ray

 

Paul33 wrote ...

Paul33: The atonement is actual and it is for all,
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I am pretty sure that "atonement" means the covering of sin. I know that "propitiation" means that God's wrath is satisfied. So if the atonement is actual, then their sins are covered. And if propitiation is actual, then God's wrath is satisfied. If the Father has been propitiated for someone, that means His wrath toward that one has been poured out, exhausted in Christ. He can't then turn around and pour it out wrath in one for whom He has been propitiated. There is no wrath left! It has been propitiated. And if Christ has atoned for someone, that means their sins are covered. He can't then turn around and pour out wrath in one whose sins have been covered at the cross. They have been covered!
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Paul33: but this does not lead to universalism
because it is not effectual until Christ intercedes on the sinner's behalf.
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There is no such thing as a non-effectual actual propitiation. And there is no such thing as a non-effectual actual atonement. These are oxymorons.
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Ray: Some reject the payment of sin on their behalf by Christ.
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This makes no sense. If you pay the penalty for something THE PENALTY IS PAID! Do you honestly believe that God punishes sinners when He's already punished Christ in their stead?
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Paul33: This is what God foreknew in the counsel of his will before the foundation of the world in regards to potential persons!
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First of all "foreknow" in Scripture when dealing with humans is never used in the sense of "what God knows about us." All knowledge is simultaneously in the "knowledge of God." We're never told that God chose people based on what He foreknew about them. That would again be works salvation. Do you not realize that the Arminian view which says that "God knows who will believe of their own free-will" flies in the face of Scripture. If God looked down through the corridors of time to see what man, left to himself, would, of his own free will choose, read Romans 3:10-18 ... that will tell you what He'd find! None righteous, not one. None seeking God. All turned aside. Whether you base salvation on works men do now, or works God "knew" they would do when they were still "potential people" works are works. There is no way around it. "Foreknow" in Scripture clearly indicates a previous knowledge in the sense of "to intimately know or to set one's affection upon." And all God chose to "know" before, He predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ."

There are those God "foreknows" and those that God "never knows" (as in "depart from Me, I never knew you.") What will Jesus mean when He says that in the end. Is He implying that there
are some people of whom He doesn't have the knowledge of what they would and would not do? Of course not. He means that there are many who He NEVER KNEW in the intimate sense. There are those He never set His affection upon. And therefore, they were not predestined to be conformed to the image of Him. And therefore they were never called to life, justified or glorified.
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Paul33: A ransom for many. Yes, because not all are ransomed. Some refuse to be ransomed by Christ.
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But you say that He gave His life as a ransom for all. That is not what the text says or means. It says and means that He gave Himself a ransom for many. (By the way, for any who wish to challenge that assertion on the basis of 1 Tim. 2:6, I'll be glad to exegete the text).
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Paul33: He lifts up Christ drawing all men to himself.
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Actually, as I've shown before, He doesn't draw all men to Himself. He draws all peoples to Himself ... Greeks (who were standing in front of Him) as well as JEws.
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Paul33: He starts the process for everyone, and the only way not to be saved is to reject what He desires for you and has secured for you in his Son's death.
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And there you have it. Arminian theology in a nutshell
1) God does His "work" by "starting the process" of salvation.
2) The way you are damned is to reject (a verb, an action, a work ... the determining work. In fact in this theology, man is actually sovereign). By the way, men are not lost by rejecting Christ. You don't ever have to reject Christ to be damned. Many are damned without ever hearing of Christ. You simply have to sin.
3) The way you are saved is to believe. Now by this you don't mean that belief is a gift of God, you mean that God has "started the process" and you must finish it by believing. That is works salvation.
4) You have an atonement that didn't save anyone. It made men savable. That is not the language or the theology of the Scripture.

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Paul33: Therefore, no one can boast. You did nothing.
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Not true according to your theology. You say that you believed of your own free will. It was not something God wrought in your heart. He can't violate your free will. It was your part of the "process" that God began.
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Paul33: You were passive.
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Not true at all according to your theology. Your view of belief is anything but passive. In fact, God has done all He can do, and now He's waiting for you to do your part.
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Paul33: God is not partial.
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Wrong. God is partial. He's not partial in judgment. All men stand condemned by a common requirement, perfect righteousness. So there is no partiality with God in judgment. But God hardens whom He wishes and He shows mercy to whom He wishes. He chose Israel and not Egypt. That is partiality.
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Paul33: God is glorified and praised for his grace and mercy.
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No, man is glorified for his wisdom or smarts in choosing God.
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Paul33: If lost, it is because you rejected God's plan for you.
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Many are lost who've never heard God's plan. They are lost because they have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
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Paul33: Question: If a pair of twins sit through all the same sermons, have every single life experience that the other has and then both die in a car accident at age 25, if one believes and goes to heaven and one goes to hell, what is the reason that the one believed?

Was he smarter? Was he wiser? Was he more spiritual?

Just Curious ...

 

Ray: in Acts 2:21 the sinner must call on the Name of the Lord, first to be saved.
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OK, a sinner must call on the name of the Lord. I don't know how many times I can affirm that biblical truth. I affirm that absolutely. But where does that text even mention the new birth in relation to when it occurs? In fact, you've overlooked a key verse.

Acts. 2:39: "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD WILL CALL TO HIMSELF."

What of the ones He doesn't call to Himself?
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Ray: the sinner must repent and believe the Gospel before the indwelling takes place.
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Wrong Ray, the sinner repents and believes the gospel because REGENERATION takes place (simultaneously with the indwelling). This is what causes belief ~ according to many texts! Just because Peter says that you believe and receive the Spirit doesn't mean commenting at all on the ordis solutis
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Ray: I know you will not be able to give me one verse under the Old Testament where Nicodemus should have read about the 'new birth.'
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Ezekiel 36: 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I WILL GIVE YOU A NEW HEART AND PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL REMOVE THE HEART OF STONE FROM YOUR FLESH AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
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I feel quite certain that Jesus was rebuking the teacher of Israel for not understanding His teaching on the new birth. And I think the text is clear that He is referring to the Old Testament.

John 3:11: "Truly, truly, I say to you, WE speak of what WE know and testify of what WE have seen, and you do not accept OUR testimony."

Ray the "we" here is Jesus and the Old Testament prophets.
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Ray: O.T. people did not look to Christ but rather to Jehovah Lord.
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Of course this is true. But O.T. people (including Nic) should have known that a "new birth" was coming. Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Deuteronomy 30 said so.
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Ray: Apart from looking to Jesus there is no salvation.
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Correct. That is a different debate that you can have with the pagans. I affirm that. The debate is not if one must look to Jesus to be saved. The debate is who will look to Jesus. I say it is those whom God makes alive. You say it is those who cause themselves to be born again by their belief.
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Ray: Paul and Silas did not say, "Now you are saved and you are about to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The Word of God says most clearly, believe in the Lord and then you will be saved. [Acts 16:31]
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Exactly, because Paul and Silas were asked what must I do. They were not asked "when I believe, why will I believe?" If they had, Paul would have said, "because you were dead in your trespasses and sins, but God, because of His great mercy and love, in His grace made you alive."
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Ray: I'm pleased that one of you Calvinists finally admitted that spiritual insight can take place before salvation.
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Yes, but spiritual insight condemns more thoroughly apart from the new birth.
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Ray: As for Lydia she was saved before Paul and Silas met her, otherwise she would not have been at prayer on the Sabbath at the side of the river.
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You know Ray, I tend to agree with you here that she was already saved. (And therefore shouldn't have used the reference behind my position). But to say that people praying on the Sabbath on the side of the river proves their salvation, I know you don't believe that.

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Ray: She was worshipping God as they arrived at the riverside. What the Lord and Paul explained was water baptism not only for her but for her household, which many believe may have been children or even an infant. 'The Lord opened her heart' to understand that all Christian believers should be baptized. [Acts 16:13-15]
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Again,I agree. FYI, I'm probably more dispensational than you are

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As to Acts nine the Lord dealt with Saul with the brightness of the light from Heaven. Saul was not saved until he responded, 'Lord, what will You have me to do?'
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Wrong: Saul was not justified (declared righteous) until he responded. But just as 1 John 5:1 says, "if one is now found to be a believing one, he was in the past born of God."
------------------------------------------------Ray: Defaming God as
- being unloving:
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- Psalm 5:5 - The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You HATE all who do iniquity.
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Ray: Defaming God as
- being unjust,
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- Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

- Romans 9: 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
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Ray: Defaming God as
- As being unmerciful
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Romans 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Hey Ray, what you call an unthinkable atrocity and outrage ... I say to you, who are you to answer back to God?

Well, I can't keep my eyes open anymore ...

Sleep tight all. Thanks Ray. May God make us know His truth ... you and me both ...

 

dattgog,

[quote This makes no sense. If you pay the penalty for something THE
PENALTY IS PAID! Do you honestly believe that God punishes sinners
when He's already punished Christ in their stead? [/quote]

Absolutely. This is what makes rejecting Christ so extremely wicked. The price has been paid; [I John 2:2] all the sinner is asked by God to do is believe in the Son. Jesus only intercedes for those who have received Himself and His life. [Hebrews 7:25 & I John 2:1e,f]

 

Ray quoted dattgog,

[quote This makes no sense. If you pay the penalty for something THE
PENALTY IS PAID! Do you honestly believe that God punishes sinners
when He's already punished Christ in their stead? [/quote]
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Ray wrote: Absolutely. This is what makes rejecting Christ so extremely wicked. The price has been paid; [I John 2:2] all the sinner is asked by God to do is believe in the Son.
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If the wrath has been poured out in a Substitute (propitiation) for every single individual, and the sins of every individual have been actually covered by a Substitute (atonement) then every sin has been paid for. Including unbelief. Unbelief is sin Ray. Sin that you say has been propitiated and covered by a Substitute. That means that the unbelief of every individual has been laid upon Christ and He has been punished for their unbelief. God's wrath against that unbelief is poured out. There is no more to pour out. It was exhausted in Christ. It is finished, and you are a universalist (if you'd be consistent).

Another question Ray ... for whom did the High Priest enter the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur to make atonement for sin?

Was it an unlimited atonement that included the Philistines, Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Moabites, etc. ... or was it a limited atonement that only covered the ELECT, CHOSEN nation, chosen by God based on nothing FORESEEN in them?

Jesus only intercedes for those who have received Himself and His life.

 

dattgog,

I am worlds apart from a universalist. I do believe that salvation is sufficient for all sinners, but only efficient or effective in the saved. Your idea that all of the sins of the world are covered, thus unbelief is included is wrong. Why? Because in John 3:18b,c tells us clearly that the sinner's sin of unbelief is not covered in His blood/atonement. The unsaved are not lost at the hour of death, but even while they are alive. This is why I say that His atonement is sufficient for all people but only effective in those who believe.

The Israelites who brought the lamb or dove were in obedience to the Lord and found a covering for their sins in the blood of Jesus. This does not mean that the pagan nations were left to go to Hell. Did God reject Ruth when she came to a belief in the Lord Jehovah? Were Abel, Enoch, and Noah Israelites? I do not think you can make a case that they were of the House of Israel. Thus, God's plan of salvation was not restricted only to the Jewish nation of Israel.

Your words ' . . . based on nothing foreseen in them,' is nowhere to be found in the Bible and is merely the jargon of some misled Calvinistic concept probably from some fledgling Protestant back at the time of the Protestant Reformation.

No one or nation is rejected from the saving grace of our Lord, though the majority will reject His merciful plan.

Brother Ray