John Calvin, Tell Me How You feel About Those That Are Lost..

Glen..If you were "In Christ" before the foundation of the world you plaily fell "out of Chirst" in Genesis 2 and got "into Adam"; whereupon you fell "out of Adam" at your conversion and Got back "IN Christ" why not just fall again glen I mean such momentum deserves repetition LOL!

 

Well?

 

This opens an entirely new area of discussion that I had not considered until you made that point. New Thread coming.

Circular reasoning. The Arminian is asking the Calvinist why they use Arminian systems/models of "Appealing to ALL" and claims that God Loves ALL - Instead of appealing in the form of "God might love you so give your heart to God - if you can then it is a sin that God must love you".

Your anser that Paul and Peter are using the same Arminian modesl that Calvinists use then why should Calvinists not be allowed to use them - is begging the question and appealing to circular reasoning at the same time. That is precisely WHY the Arminian question applies here -

We are not only highlighting the Arminian model in the text BUT ALSO in your own evangelism.

Answering that the text is using an arminian model so why shouldn't we - is exactly why Arminians use that in evangelism - but why do Calvinists do it? The question remains.

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 26, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

There is a HUGE difference between preaching that "invites" people to come to Christ and using the "invitation system" (the "altar call"). If evangelistic preaching doesn't call for a response, it isn't evangelistic. That does not mean, however, that one has to employ the altar call to have this sort of preaching. Remember, the altar call wasn't employed until the 19th century.

The "Calvinist" doesn't use an "Arminian" model when he invites ALL people to Christ. Rather, he is using the biblical model. St. Paul declared that ALL men everywhere are now commanded to repent (Acts 17). We are not loyal to a system or to a Reformer, we are loyal to God and His Word.

Rev. G

P. S. (Shilo, are you ever going to give a substantial response to my previous questions and comments?)

[ October 20, 2002, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

YOU have obviously Not read what I said too carefully..did you think that my saying "Yes he did" ..was disagreeing with you?!?

Your right Historically "Calvinism" was started by the theology of Augustine. who in turn got his theology from Origen.
I find it funny that you would say that Calvin is not the "Founder" Of your faith when Boettner seems to disagree with you.

"It was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness that it has ever since borne his name" ( boetter. Predestination, pg 4.)

Stupid statements really "G"? Well lets see who is stupid. They didn't call Calvin a heretic in Geneva?? Really?!?

"dogs bark at me on all sides. everywhere I am saluted with the name heretic and all the calumnies that can possibly be invented are heaped upon me; i a word the enimies amoung my own flock attack me with greater bitterness than my declared enemies among the papists" (calvin quoted in Schaff history, vol.8 pg 496)

Oh yeah people did say that it was great to be in geneva but that was only if you were one of Calvins followers and agreed with his theology. If you weren't you were banished or put to death.

 

Funny Helen, in an odd sort of way it was this very thing that led me to believe the Calvanist point of view. How could a God so loving put some children in a loving christian home in the year 2002 with the gospel proclaimed to them their entire life, yet put another child in a South American tribe deep in the jungle in the year 325 AD with no chance of ever hearing the name Jesus.

I think people are too hard on the other side. Both can be taught from scripture and I belive somehow beyond our understanding both are true.

 

Shilo:

Actually, yes Augustine preceded Calvin. Of course, they both got their theology from the Apostles Paul and John. You don't like Romans 9, huh?

I didn't say that no one called him a heretic in Geneva. The Libertines certainly did, and they were many. However, it was not the great majority that you made it out to be.

You quoted Boettner, but he certainly did not state that he was our "founder." Please!

You are obviously an intelligent individual, but you are making some stupid comments.

How many people did Calvin order to be put to death, Shilo? Please, tell me. For that matter, how many people were put to death for "religious" reasons, or for disagreeing with Calvin in church matters?

Also, why haven't you dealt with the issue of church planting? Let's go beyond that. Who launched the first Protestant "foreign missions"? Calvin and the Genevans.

If he was such a tyrant, why did all of those immigrants pour into Geneva (other than to be trained as missionaries, pastors and church planters?)? Why would they trade one tyrannical despot for another?

[ October 20, 2002, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

Chappie:

Thanks for your response.

Rev. G

 

Comments edited for above reasons.

[ October 20, 2002, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Yeah in your own wishful thinking. Augustine frequently quoted the Apocryphal books..He beieved the Spetuagint was divinly inspired and asked Jerome to translate the old testament from it in stead of the Hebrew.

Yeah He professed that he believed the Bible but he relied more on the Methods of Origen and the Alexandrian school.

Love Romans 9 I just know that it isn't dealing with what your twisted view says it does.

Denial can be an ugly thing.

[Historical comments edited since they are irrelevant to this forum. Let me remind us all that this forum is not about Calvin as a man or Arminius as a man. It is about the respective theologies that bear their name. Let's confine our discussion here to those matters and save church history for the appropriate forum.]

[ October 20, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Circular reasoning. The Arminian is asking the Calvinist why they use Arminian systems/models of "Appealing to ALL" and claims that God Loves ALL - Instead of appealing in the form of "God might love you so give your heart to God - if you can then it is a sin that God must love you".</font>[/QUOTE]This is not the message of the gospel. I give the same invitation that God gives: Whososever will, let him come and drink.

I don't see why it is circular at all or begging the question. You have identified an invitation as arminian and I disagree. I say that "calvinists" since the first century church have used the very method you call Arminian. It was a "Calvinist" method long before there were arminians.

Again, I think you misunderstood my point. The text doesn't use an arminian model because the system that you talk about is not, at face value, an arminian system. It has been abused by many arminians to be sure. However, I am saying that an invitation is not an arminian system because Peter and Paul who were most certainly not arminians invited people to Christ. I do not follow an arminian model in calling people to respond to the message of the gospel. I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this point.

[ October 20, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Let me urge again to back off the rhetoric. Words like "stupid" or "twisted" do not need to be used with regards to other people's views. Let's lift the level of conversation rather than dragging it down. Let your speech be seasoned with grace.

 

Dear Moderator:

Since the question is about whether or not Calvin loves the lost, isn't history relevant? Please understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative, I was just trying to deal with the question at hand. Should this thread be moved to the "Church History" forum?

Rev. G
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Moderator's Note: IT has been my consistent practice since the inception of this forum to limit the discussion of personal historical matters to other places. This forum is not about JOHn Calvin per se or Jacob Arminius per se. It is about the general soteriologies that are known by their names.

Your cites of messages and writings of Calvin are appropriate because they detail his position on loving the lost and preaching the gospel. Discussions about his politics are another matter.

As I have pointed out, this has been my consistent practice long before most of you even showed up on this forum so I hope it is clear that my edits are not about personalities involved but rather about the guidelines that I maintain here.

[ October 21, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Shilo:

I apologize for using the word "stupid." I should have used the term "ignorant" (not as an insult, but in the truest sense of the word -'without knowing'). I let your comments get under my skin and retorted in the flesh. I apologize to you, and to all for not letting my speech be seasoned with both salt and grace.

Rev. G

 

I answered this question with historical facts. the facts were not in favor of John Calvin. Because of the fact that someone doesn't want the truth to be known..my answer was deleted. becasue in his veiw it "didn't pertain to this discussion"

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Moderator's Note: Your comments were not edited because I don't want the truth known. They were edited because they deal with history, not with theology. I think Calvin did some reprehensible things ... which would really bother me if I was a follower of Calvin. Since I am not, I don't care. If you want to discuss church history, I invite you to use the proper forum. In my understanding, this thread was about whether or not soteriological Cavlinists love the lost.
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This is incredible considering that The Doctrines Of Calvinism Came from calvin himself as Boettner admits. his Character is very relivant to this discussion.
For if a man has a character that goes contrary to Bible doctrine can this man be trusted to be correct in his doctrines that bear his name. would you want you church to be founded on such an idividual?
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The doctrines of Calvinism came from Scripture long before Boettner or Calvin came along. Our belief is not founded on a man and his character but on the inspired Word of God. That is why discussions about Calvin as a man are inappropriate in this forum. I invite you to discuss them in the appropriate forum.

[ October 21, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

I wouldn't use the word "Ignorant" either. I did and was repremanded for it.

I shouldn't have used the word twisted on this board either..i should have known better.

No worries..listen you don't have to apologise to me. I do appreciate, it but i was not offended by you or what you said at all.

I shouldn't have used the word "twisted" I appologise for that.

 

Accepted.

Rev. G