John Calvin's Treatise Against the Ana-Baptist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rockytopva, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. rockytopva Member
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    To show the true colors of the sheer spirit of hatred that existed in John Calvin one need look no further than the "John Calvin's Treatise Against Ana-Baptist" book. And here is how he begins....

    TO write against all the false opinions & errours of the Anabaptists, should be a thing too long, & such a bottomless pit, as I could not well come out of. For this canker differeth in this thing from all other sects of hereticks: that she hath not erred only in certain points: but she hath engendered a whole sea, as it were, of foolish & false opinions. In such wise that scant shall a man find one Anabaptist which hath not some fantasy singular: which his fellows have not. So that if we would pluck out, or rehearse all their wicked doctrines, we should never make an end. But now at length they become unto two principal sects: whereof the one, though she be full of wicked & pernicious errours, yet doth she abide in much more simplicity. For she yet receiveth the holy scripture, as we do. And if men do dispute with those that be of that sect, it shall be perceived wherein they differ from us, & they will express their meaning, & in conclusion it may be perceived in what they accord, & wherein they dissent. The second sect is a mass of such foolish & beastly opinions, as the like cannot be found, insomuch that it is wonder how creatures which bear the figure of a man, can be so clean without sense & reason, as to suffer themselves so to be deceived, & fall into fantasies more than brutish. This sect call themselves libertines. And counterfeit so much the spiritual, that they set no more by the word of God, than they do by fables: except it be when it pleaseth them, and when as they may deprave it, and by force make it to serve for their devilish opinions. And besides this they have a charming or croaking as it were Cranes, so that a man cannot tell what it is, that they would say, and no more do they wot what it is themselves: but that by this craft they cover the filthiness of their doctrine. For their principles are to confound all differences between good & ill, & to mingle God so with the Devil that it should not be discerned between the one and the other, and so to make men not only without all feeling in their consciences before God: but also without shame before the world. Now see you wherefore they drive themselves into such caves of obscure and doubtful words, to the end that their villainy should not be perceived, lest we should have them in horror and execration. As indeed our nature repugneth against such monstrous things as they bring forth. So now to write in a sum against the errours of the Anabaptists, the shortest and most expedient way is to keep this division, and to gather apart in one treatise the errours of them which be not altogether so mad and desperate: and in another treatise to discover the venomous malice of those wicked, which under the colour of spirituality, would make men like unto brute beasts. - John Calvin
     
  2. rockytopva Member
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    John Calvin then goes on to compare the Ana-Baptist to Sadducees, mad bedlams, and of wicked opinions,
     
  3. rockytopva Member
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    "For their principles are to confound all differences between good & ill, & to mingle God so with the Devil that it should not be discerned between the one and the other, and so to make men not only without all feeling in their consciences before God: but also without shame before the world."

    And he goes on to say....

    "And to die for a just cause, is that which doth decern the martyrs of God from the devil's martyrs."

    I would imagine that while toasting Michael Servetus that John Calvin had the "devil's martyr" in mind. In which case, it became, that if any would not agree with him, that they would become what he thought a devil's martyr.
     
  4. TCassidy Administrator
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    So what? Most of the Protestants and all of the Catholics hated the AnaBaptists. What's your point?
     
  5. rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Hmm. That could describe some of the Baptist churches I've run across as well.
     
  6. rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I could make a serious reply based on Calvin's distinctions between those "full of wicked & pernicious errours, yet doth she abide in much more simplicity. For she yet receiveth the holy scripture, as we do. And if men do dispute with those that be of that sect, it shall be perceived wherein they differ from us, & they will express their meaning, & in conclusion it may be perceived in what they accord, & wherein they dissent" and "A ... mass of such foolish & beastly opinions, as the like cannot be found, insomuch that it is wonder how creatures which bear the figure of a man, can be so clean without sense & reason ... "

    I'm not defending Calvin. But Anabaptist covered a multitude of sects, some of which were Orthodox and some of which were not.

    But I'm not making a serious reply, so ignore this.
     
  7. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Maybe you should try to present an argument regarding where Calvin is wrong, not about his style of writing.
     
  8. rockytopva Member
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    If you think John Calvin was a warm and loving guy... I've got news for You!
     
  9. rockytopva Member
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    "TO write against all the false opinions & errours of the Anabaptists, should be a thing too long, & such a bottomless pit, as I could not well come out of." - John Calvin

    Wow!!!!
     
  10. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    was he required to be?
     
  11. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Make an argument, please.
     
  12. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Warm is for cinnamon buns.
     
  13. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Well, Jesus was warm towards the Pharisees, but don't think was the fuzzy loving kind of warmth!
     
  14. TCassidy Administrator
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    Warm? He called them a bunch of snakes!

    Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
     
  15. rockytopva Member
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    John Calvin justified killing his theological opponents with the Bible

    John Calvin’s interpretation of the Bible justified the murder of his theological opponents. Calvin justified capital punishment of heretics with Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”

    And "Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word; for if he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive." - writing to his friend William Farel on 13 February 1546:

    "Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death, knowingly and willingly incur their guilt. It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for His Church.” - John Calvin

    I guarantee you that if an Ana-Baptist were to have appeared in Geneva they would of suffered the same fate as Michael Servetus. John Calvin was not at all a kind man!
     
  16. TCassidy Administrator
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    So what? Nobody has claimed he was a big fuzzball.
     
  17. Rippon Well-Known Member
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    He was a warm, person he was not haughty. He cared about others. He grieved for other and sympathized with them.

    You need to read his letters to get a full-orbed idea.
     
  18. Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You are dead wrong. (Pun intended.)

    John Calvin did not have the authority in Geneva to kill anyone.

    If AnaBaptists had come to Geneva they would not have been killed --banned perhaps, but not killed.

    John Calvin did not have all the power you have invested him with.

    Your Church History is confused.
     
  19. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    You are rewriting history and looking at it through the eyes of the 21 century, as well.

    Also, by your logic, we could not include king David's writings in the canon.
     
  20. rockytopva Member
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    I am a long time supporter of the Bible Broadcasting Network, founded by the late Lowell Davey, who would later rebuke and take the John MacArthur program off the air....

    "In December 1989, the Bible Broadcasting Network terminated MacArthur's Grace to You program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ, and "Lordship Salvation." Davey called these teachings "confusing." In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a, "....drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to," and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election "....convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism...." - John F. MacArthur - Wikipedia

    Good for Lowell Davey, which also helps motivate me in keeping the bbnradio.org on the air.