John Mac Aurthur on "Purpose Driven Life"

Just exactly where is the altar in a New Testament church?

Waal, it's symbolic, you answer.

Then riddle me this. Why is the symbolic altar always down there where the preacher is? Why can't it be back here in the pew where I am?

Same questions regarding the exhortation "come to Jesus." Why does one have to come where the preacher is in order to come to Jesus?

Same questions regarding the exhortation "Take that step of faith."

Why does one have to step all the way to the front to demonstrate faith?

And why does it always have to be at the end of the service? Why can't it be right after the benediction?

I heard a TV preacher just today preach without once citing a Scripture. At the end, he said, "we never want to close our service without giving you a chance to be saved. Pray this prayer." (The Prayer) "If you prayed that prayer we believe you got saved." Hmm, no walking, no stepping, no coming to the altar. All you need is to say some magic words.

I wish the easy believism folks would make up their minds.

 

1. No, but what if one does? Who cares? I see the coming forward / sinners prayer as the first step of someone who has moments before become regenerated.

2. People can come to Christ first thing in the morning. That's not he point. Church services (even yours, I'm sure) have an order to doing things, and this usually takes place after the pastor has preached.

 

RW does teach that Jesus came to pay the penalty of sins. I think for us who have been believers a while and speak "christianese", we tend to have problems with some of the words RW uses. I understand his reasoning in doing so, it's to reach a world in the culture they are in. If you were talking to a gang member on the street you would not say "Jesus came to atone for your sins". He wouldn't understand that. Paul taught the same way when telling the greeks about their "unknown god". There is a need to be relevant in sharing the Gospel, and RW's ministry is different than that of John MacAruthurs. I keep hearing how RW is "about numbers". Well, I would hope that would be ALL of our concern, that God uses us to reach as many people as possible for Him.

Just my $.04 (I charge interest these days)

 

While John MacArthur is a gifted teacher, he has his own issues concerning the extra biblical Lordship Salvation. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

Extra Biblical? Nope, just biblical.

Romans 10:9.


Macarthur is kind of boring. But he is definitely Biblical.

 

That's debateable. I believe Lordship Salvation to be a stone's throw from works based salvation. I'm not talking about Jesus being Lord (He is), I'm talking about the theology of LS.

 

Tell me: do you think a person can say "I like being a homosexual, Jesus, and I refuse to change. But I will take you salvation thingy, I guess. But don't expect me to honor you or do what you say."

If you think the person above is saved, then you do not believe in Lordship salvation. If you believe the person described above HAS NOT been saved, because of his attitude, you believe in it: regardless if you think otherwise.

 

Your one analogy doesn't describe the doctrine of Lordship Salvation. It sounds like you believe your fictitious person's salvation is based on the person not practicing homosexuality. That screams works based salvation.

True repentance is the change to Christ for salvation, not turning from any particular sin. You would have the "new creation" instantly going from clay to a kiln dried beautiful vase.

Back to your analogy. What happens if you were to find out MacAruthur just became a homosexual? Is he saved in your model? Or, what if he saw a woman bathing on her rooftop and had an affair, then murdered her husband. Saved or unsaved?

 

Only problem is praying that prayer will not save you!!! And he has no idea if anyone was saved or not and telling them that just because you prayed that prayer did the job is dangours!!!This is why hell is going to be full of saved people someday. Telling someone they are saved just because they prayed a few words is not right and is not going to get the job done. Man can not tell anyone they are saved never could and never will be able to, this is between God and them if they are truely saved then they will be a new creature, but if they are saved and continue to live like demons with no change in them they are not saved. Lot of you may not agree with me on this so be it but I will fight the good fight and not let someone go to hell when they thought they were saved.

 

Well said. Although I suppose we can never know for certain what's in one's heart, we can look for evidence that he is a new creature. Paul wrote in I Thess 1 1:3, citing the evidence he saw by which he called the brothers in v.4

"..Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of our hope in the Lord Jesus Christ, in God and the Father."

Paul saw faith which produced works, love which produced labor, and hope which produced patience (or endurance). Hmm, faith, hope and love. Where have we heard that before? These three, the identifying marks of a believer. Not "I said the prayer."

 

Well said to you also m8, we are on the same page on this.

 

What happens if you were to find out MacAruthur just became a homosexual?

If anyone begins performing the acts you describe and if these actions are evidence of what is in their heart, and they do repent with their heart and stop doing them (evidence that their repentance is true), then I don't believe they will be saved.

David was saved because he later repented. However, it he refused to repent for his actions he would not have been saved. 2 Samuel 12:13

We we know it is a heart problem, and we cannot see their heart. However, as fellow-Christians we are called to rebuke and correct un-Christian behavior in love. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

So, I would expect that we would rebuke our Brother John MacArthur, and pray that he would change his ways. However, if he refused, it would be better to part ways because "a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough". 1 Corinthians 5:1-8.


Shalom

 

First, welcome to the BB

Can you take a lifetime of living fruitful, faithful lives and throw that out the window due to giving in to the flesh and supressing the Spirit? How is this not a works based viewpoint?

 

No. It involves a love and desire to follow Christ: a submitting to Christ as Lord.

True repentance is a continual turning from sin unto Christ, as evidenced when Paul proclaims in the book of Acts "turn from these vain things, unto the living God". That is a call for repentance.

Depends. A Christian can and will sin. But a Christian will also be contrite about their sin, and continually repent. If he said "I don't care what Jesus says, I like my sin" then NO, he is not saved. Unless a person repents, they will perish. Since this is in the Greek present tense, indicating continually action, one who does not continue to repent (turn from their sins) is not saved.

For instance, take David. The MOMENT He was confronted by a man of God with what he had done, he was instantly broken and repentant. That is the typical model, I believe, for a Christian who has fallen into sin.

 

If this is true repentance, it is not turning to Christ as much as it is away from sinning. That's works however you slice it.

I don't recall reading anywhere where christians stop liking sin. As long as we have a sin nature, sin will be pleasurable, but it is fleeting. If it weren't, we would never sin.
How often does one have to "continually repent"? What if a believer is killed in the act of sinning? Does the notion he didn't repent mean he was not saved?

...then salvation is not by grace through faith, but dependant on man's continual work of repenting.

That's one example, but I think it's a stretch to apply this to all believers. I do not see one instance of Lot repenting in Scripture, yet he was only a handful of men to be deemed both godly and righteous.

 

Faith vs. Works

Thanks for the welcome!

A Very Good Question!

This is a confusing question for many most Christians. Including those who bother to read the Bible and to earnestly seek Christ. Scripture tells us that we are "saved by faith, not works", but then we are told to "work our your salvation". Sounds like a contradiction?

...but it is not.

The good things you do in the name of Christ (not all good things are done in the name of Christ, and without God NO human could do even one good thing. No not one.) are EVIDENCE that you truly are saved, however, the works you do are not the things that provide salvation. They are EVIDENCE of your Justification, and are called the process of Sanctification. They are EVIDENCE that you love Jesus Christ.

I owe John Piper immensely in helping me understand this faith vs. works confusion. If you would like, I can recommend a specific sermon or two that helped me understand this.

 

Lot was godly and righteous?

Remind me again, where does it say that "Lot...was godly and righteous"?

From my recollection, God saved Lot in remembrance of Abraham, who was righteous, not because Lot was righteous.

Genesis 19:29
So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
​

 

I believe this is what he's referring to.

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds

 

Then Paul was preaching works salvation. Period.

If Macarthur's "repentance" is false, then so is Paul's.

Really? That is not what Paul says...

Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

So if a person denies Christ, and becomes an Atheist they are still saved??? THAT certainly is not biblical! Continual faith and repentance is what a Christian WILL do, not what a Christian MUST do: both are gifts from God, anyway.

Notice in that same verse, it says that it "vexed" Lots righteous soul, just TO BE AROUND those people: another perfect example of God's people hating sin, even when our old nature sucks us into it.

 

I guess Lot was considered righteous

Thanks Amy G.!