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Featured John Nelson Darby vs Baptist Confessions of Faith

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Apr 30, 2015.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Seems the tribe of Benjamin existed.
    Paul says in Romans 11:
    1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    He was of the Tribe of Benjamin, many of the Samitans were from the different tribes who had married Gentiles. That is why the Jews felt the way they did toward the Samaritans. The Jews in most cases today can track their linage all the way back to the son of Jacob they descended from.

    Jesus says in the tribulation God will track them back to their tribe to seal 12,000 from each tribe listed. thus making up the 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe noted. That means God still has a plan for Israel.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    DHK,
    You apparently think that because Paul prayed for national Israel that rescinds what Jesus Christ told the Jews:

    Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    It does not!
     
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is not true. You need to read Revelation Revelation 7:1ff again.
     
  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 7:4-8
    4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
    7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
    8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."

    Explain how it is not!
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is often a difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. And this is one place where those phrases make a definite difference.
    Jesus here is speaking of a spiritual kingdom (the kingdom of God).
    The kingdom of heaven will indeed be given to the Jews. Read the OT. God is not a liar. He will restore the kingdom to the Jews--the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth--a Millennial Kingdom.
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    These sealed are described as coming from all the tribes of the children of Israel. Notice, however, that not all the tribes are included. The tribe of Dan is missing. The tribe of Joseph is included as is the half tribe of Manasseh. Since the tribe of Joseph, the father of Ephraim and Manasseh, is included why is the half tribe of Manasseh included? Expositors who want to interpret this passage literally have attempted to explain the absence of Dan, the inclusion of both Manasseh and Joseph, and the absence of Ephraim in various ways. However any attempt to interpret this passage literally creates problems. The salient fact is that the twelve tribes of Israel are not all listed. Therefore the simple solution to the apparent problem is that the passage is written to be interpreted symbolically.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I did:
    And I proved you wrong.

    Judah and Benjamin are the only two tribes that make up what is known as Judah.
    Now what about:

    Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

    The tribe of Asher is from the Israel or the northern tribes.
    She is but one example. The very fact that her tribe is recorded would give credence to believe that they all could give the tribe from which they came. Just because the Bible doesn't tell us which tribe each individual came from does not mean they didn't know it. That is only an unwarranted assumption on your part. You are reading into the scriptures something that isn't there.
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is not correct. Compare Matthews use of the Kingdom of Heaven in some of the parables with the writers of the other Gospels use of the Kingdom of God in the same parables. GOD is not the author of Confusion!


    And GOD is not the author of Confusion!
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No he isn't. I am not confused. Why are you?
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Not all Israelites were carried into captivity. Some of those who remained behind married those sent into replace the captives. So we have the Samaritans. As I recall when Ezra returned he called on the Israelites to put away their spouses who were not of Israel. Furthermore, it is unlikely that all those left behind married outside their ethnic group!


    I am a novice compared to the pre-tribbers, DHK!
     
    #70 OldRegular, May 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2015
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are confused if you say that there is a difference between the Kingdom of GOD and the Kingdom of Heaven. Many dispensationalists have discarded that error years ago! But you cling to it, ignore what the parables say, and believe someone who wrote Scripture is confused!
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am glad, for once, you admit you are a novice. It gives one a reason to believe why you are so confused in your comprehension of Scripture.

    1. Look you admit that not all were carried into captivity.
    2. But then you make the inference that the ones left behind "all" intermarried and became Samaritans. No, some of them did. Many of them kept their identity, never lost it. You are simply making too many assumptions.
    3. By putting away foreign wives Ezra purified the nation, and they kept their identity.

    It seems to me you have no faith in God.

    Look again at what the Scriptures say:

    Luk 2:1-4 (EMTV)
    (1) And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census be taken of all the empire.
    (2) This census was the first one while Quirinius was governing Syria.
    (3) And all were traveling to be registered, each to his own city.
    (4) Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,
    --The KJV reads "to be taxed" but it was actually a census.
    Mary and Joseph were of the tribe of Judah, specifically of the family of David. Therefore they had to go to Bethlehem to enroll in this census.
    Each person had to do the same thing. It was imperative that they know their genealogy. They had to. It was a requirement. Something of such value was never lost on a Jew.
    Look at the detailed history that Saul was able to give when called upon.
    The same was true of Anna coming from Asher.

    You have absolutely no evidence to say that any of their heritage was lost.
     
  13. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Actually it wasn't Saul but Doctor Luke and he only wrote what GOD told him!
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Thanks much for the link. I thought I wold post some remarks about Southern Baptists though most of Reisinger's remarks are related to the impact of Darby on the Presbyterians.

    Thirty or forty years ago our church had a young assistant pastor who had attended Southwestern Seminary. He told me one night he was concerned that Criswell would be unduly influenced by the people at Chafer's Dallas Theological Seminary. Apparently his concern was justified!
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes, but when he quoted Paul, he quoted him word perfectly. Paul stated many times his own pedigree, and not just in the book of Acts.

    Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

    Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Act 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
    Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

    Act 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
    Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

    These are Paul's own words, what he says about himself in the different letters he wrote, or what Luke records when he quotes him word for word.
     
  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So Criswell saw the light of truth and followed it?
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    No! And neither have you!

    It is apparently "verboten" to mention John Nelson Darby as the father of pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church-dispensationalism on this Board but that is the truth.

     
    #78 OldRegular, May 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2015
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    No! And neither have you!

    It is apparently "verboten" to mention John Nelson Darby as the father of pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church-dispensationalism on this Board but that is the truth.

     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Reading some biographical material on Reisinger, it wasn't the Bible that turned him away from dispensationalism.
    http://www.carolbrandt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Ernest-Reisinger.pdf
    I suppose if he would have read Charles Taze Russell's books he would have become a J.W.
    Someone once said: "You are what you read."
     
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