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Discussion in 'Books & Publications Forum' started by rsr, Sep 27, 2005.

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  1. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Whatever

    I did not receive the email you are referencing, so I have NO idea what it was about.

    The quote I presented? It is presented with ellipsis. And I went back and checked it out, it worked.

    Are you talking about a quote that was in your email?

    Are you asking about Bethlehem Baptist Church?
     
    #21 El_Guero, Oct 4, 2005
  2. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    El,

    Sorry for confusing you. That article you linked to is the same article that I got from one of Piper's email lists that I am subscribed to.

    The quote I was asking about was the one where you said "he is now no longer considering baptism necessary to be baptist. I would have cut and pasted the quote, but it was an image."

    I have not seen where he said that he "no longer considers baptism necessary to be a baptist". As I said before, I read it as saying that they are allowing non-Baptists to join their local Baptist church. If you want to equate "being a Baptist" with "joining a Baptist church", well, I think their article distinguishes between those two things. Reading what they say about their stricter qualifictions for elders seems to reinforce this point.
    You may disagree with them about the validity of allowing non-Baptists to join, and as I said I have not made my mind up yet. If you do disagree with them then I would like to know why.
     
    #22 whatever, Oct 4, 2005
  3. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    You are referencing a work that I do not believe that I have ANY way of finding.

    If you want my opinion, please tell me where I can find it ...
     
    #23 El_Guero, Oct 4, 2005
  4. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    El,

    You gave a link above to a "Fresh Words" article written by Piper.

    You said that "he is now no longer considering baptism necessary to be baptist".

    You said that you "would have cut and pasted" that quote "but it was an image".

    Those are the things I am referencing. I do not know why you cannot reference the material that you have provided.
     
    #24 whatever, Oct 5, 2005
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    I was refereing to YOUR quote in a quotation block.

    I did not post my reference as a QUOTE, that was a summation.
     
    #25 El_Guero, Oct 5, 2005
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    My statement was derived from a reference to the statement "Christians who have not been baptised by immersion as believers ... may ... be members of this church"(*)(**)

    (*) Baptism and Membership, PDF format, (Internet: DesiringGod.com, accessed 4 Oct 2005) F.4, page 35.

    (**) In my general experience I would consider baptism in the historic baptist sence to always indicate baptism by immersion. Yes, I am aware that the 'first' baptist separatists sprinkled some members out of expediency. Yes I am aware that those first separatists were ARMINIAN.
     
    #26 El_Guero, Oct 5, 2005
  7. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    In fairness to Piper.

    He and his church have raised the bar for eldership. From what I understand, he will not allow divorced eldership. Nor, will he allow sprinkled elders (elders must be baptised by immersion).

    He is doing this to open the front door for admission to church membership.

    However, I think it would be appropriate if the church were to call itself Bethlehem Non-Denominational rather than Bethlehem Baptist ...
     
    #27 El_Guero, Oct 5, 2005
  8. Convicted by the Spirit

    Convicted by the Spirit New Member

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    El_Gureo,

    I tried to take our conversation away from the board becuase I knew how you tend to act and what you would tend to say. You have made some very terrible references to me without any knowledge of myself what so ever. I am very sorry I have ever typed one word in your direction. All you have done to me is wasted my time. I have asked you several point blank questions and for some reason you saw fit not to answer them or acknowledge them many times. Don't talk to me and I won't speak to you.
     
    #28 Convicted by the Spirit, Oct 5, 2005
  9. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Here's a thought on Piper's shift of position on baptism ... considering Bethlehem baptizes fewer than 40 people a year it is a natural move for them to allow other membership options. Bethlehem is largely composed of transferring Christians. Piper's shift makes absolute sense in light of this equation.
     
    #29 All about Grace, Oct 5, 2005
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    No, it doesn't AIG, it shows his lack of desire to stand in the line of Baptist distinctives.

    To allow into membership (who, with congregational rule, will be able to vote and even change the whole doctrinal position of the body) people who have not been baptized or who have been sprinkled as babies - again, NOT baptized - or sprinkled as believers is a horrendous breach with our heritage.

    And reprehensible ethically, post-modern or neo-orthodox at best. I always expected better of Piper.

    ps - Convicted/El G - take your personal issues to personal email and leave the BB out of it, okay?
     
    #30 Dr. Bob, Oct 5, 2005
  11. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link rsr! Definitely bookmarked.
     
    #31 Gold Dragon, Oct 5, 2005
  12. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Dr. Bob,

    I was under the impression that they were elder rule, not congregational, and that was why they emphasized the more stringent qualifications for eldership. Is this not the case? I really do not know much about how elder-led churches operate.
     
    #32 whatever, Oct 5, 2005
  13. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    El,

    You said that you saw a quote that you could not cut and paste. Since I asked for the contents of that quote you have been crawfishing and acting like you didn't know what I was talking about. Brother, if you don't want to discuss it that's fine, but I just wanted to know what led you to draw the conlusion that you drew. I think I have figured out what it is, so no reply is necessary.
     
    #33 whatever, Oct 5, 2005
  14. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    The quote was LONG. If you don't want to look it up, fine.

    And no, I really don't want to discuss it. It was clear.
     
    #34 El_Guero, Oct 5, 2005
  15. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Tell me where and I will look it up. Like I said before, I read the article you linked to and I saw nothing that led me to draw the conclusion that you drew.
     
    #35 whatever, Oct 5, 2005
  16. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    There seems to be some miscommunication here. El Guero's link referred to an 80-page PDF outlining the church's proposed constitutional changes.

    Briefly, on page 11, the recommendation is that immersion is not a requirement for membership.

    "Since we believe that the New Testament teaches and demonstrates that the mode of baptism is only the immersion of a believer in water, we therefore regard all other practices of baptism as misguided, defective, and illegitimate. Yet, while not taking these differences lightly, we would not elevate them to the level of what is essential. Thus, we will welcome into membership candidates who, after a time of study, discussion, and prayer, prescribed by the Elders, retain a conviction that it would be a violation of their conscience to be baptized by immersion as believers. This conviction of conscience must be based on a plausible, intelligible, Scripturally-based argument rather than on mere adherence to a tradition or family expectations. The elders will make all such judgments in presenting candidates for membership to the congregation. All candidates for membership, even when holding firmly to views different from the official position of the elders, must demonstrate a humble and teachable disposition with respect to the church leadership, as expressed in the Church Covenant."

    At the same time, the affirmation of faith for elders is unchanged:

    "We believe that baptism is an ordinance of the Lord by which those who have repented and come to faith express their union with Christ in His death and resurrection, by being immersed in water in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a sign of belonging to the new people of God, the true Israel, and an emblem of burial and cleansing, signifying death to the old life of unbelief, and purification from the pollution of sin."

    I suggest that if there is need of further discussion, it more properly belongs in a Baptist-only forum dedicated to the subject matter.

    rsr
     
    #36 rsr, Oct 5, 2005
  17. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Agree. Let's stop dicussion on Baptist Church membership et al on a Book Forum and move to Baptist Theology.

    Thread closed. New topic (using these summary quotations above) open for discussion under Theology.
     
    #37 Dr. Bob, Oct 6, 2005
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