John the Baptist

I don't allow my children to say things like 'are you really that dumb' so I will refrain from using such language here.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The HOLY SPIRIT draws men. Some accept and some reject. Those who yield, are drawn, are led, accept, are wooed.... will be raised up at the last day. The others will perish.


Now, TCassidy is known for his word games so you two boys can now scratch each others ears while I iron hubby's work clothes and await the apology from rc.

Diane

 

Salvation is not about choice, it is about regeneration. Before one is born again, they are at enmity towards God (Rom 8:7), and enmity does not cooperate with love. One is not going to come to Jesus Christ if they are at enmity towards God (2Cor 2:14).

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

I posted the evidence of at least one council condemning Calvinism! I answered your question then, but you did not believe nor agree. Why should I do that again?

 

I try to make the questions as simple as possible.
I guess they are just not simple enough.

 

RC called me a false teacher, a heretic, a cultist by calling me a universalist. He also implied that I believe ALL will be saved when repeatedly I have stated only those who respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit will be saved. He knowingly lied, to put it bluntly, and now you have joined him.

Thomas Cassidy, your condescending attitude toward other Christians is appalling, especially for a 'man of god'.

I am very hurt by our board for allowing my salvation to be questioned. I have quickly stepped in and removed posts where the salvation of even those who disagree with me is questioned. Also, I am very, very angry at rc and Thomas Cassidy for their treatment of those who disagree with them and anger is not a Christlike attitude. I apologize and repent for the feelings I have for both of you and others this morning.

Diane

 

Wes,
Drop it. You gave me a Catholic council... All you did by that is prove MY point. I told you that you couldn't find a protestant council. One that is a sola scriptura based council. It proved my point that the Bible based understanding is Calvinistic where "Free Will" based philosophy came from the Catholic Church, which you proved by only giving me a Catholic council. But thanks again for reminding me that you proved yourself wrong.

 

You never established such criteria for evidence. You specifically said, name me one council that....I did! I can do nothing for you if you keep changing the rules!

 

Hang in there Diane! You are right!

 

Diane,

I have seen that you found the fallacy in the "universalist" understanding in the verse because of the connection between ALL that are drawn and ALL that are lifted up... good.
You are not a universalist. I was just showing you the fallacy of the understanding that you where promoting before your last post...

BUT.... Help me out with your last comments..
They seem fractured to me...

The HOLY SPIRIT draws men . Some accept and some reject. Those who yield, are drawn , are led, accept, are wooed.... will be raised up at the last day. The others will perish.


First you said that the Holy Spirit Draws ALL men, but now you are saying that the only ones that are drawn are the ones who YIELD? You can't have it both ways. You are trying to disconnect the link between those drawn and those lifted up. First you WANT it to say "All are drawn,but to deny universalism you then say "No, wait a minute God draws ALL but OUT of those drawn some reject and some accept and OUT OF the ones DRAWN (everybody) only the ones that accept are DRAWN (meaning NOT everybody, so you get out of universalism) Don't you see that you are confusing yourself?

If ALL are DRAWN it means THAT... ALL are drawn... it does NOT say all that are drawn AND ACCEPT my WOOING will come to the father, YOU CAN'T ADD TO THE SCRIPTURE !

It is ALL that are drawn are lifted up.

Even in your own statement you say that ALL are not DRAWN by saying "Those who YIELD are drawn"... That is implying then MY point that ALL are not drawn BUT ONLY the ones that God will lift up are drawn, which systematically means ALL are not ABLE... funny which in the preceding phrase of the verse is exactly what Jesus said "No man is ABLE to come"

But please Diane you can not add your "ideas" into scripture, it means ALL that the father draws WILL be lifted up. Either all men are not Drawn, which you actually said (only those who yield are drawn, which shows since all do not yield then all are NOT drawn proving election) or ALL men ARE DRAWN and ALL will be lifted up.

So in short, your statement which I need help in understanding is ... All are drawn but only those who yield are drawn?.... don't you see that is self refuting? Or am I missing something?

And I think you assumed quite a bit by saying I questioned your salvation. No where in any post have I ever questioned anyone's salvation. Universalists if anything believe that everybody is saved... that does not in ANY way put a doubt about ones salvation. Because one has an improper understanding about the peripherals of sotierology doesn't necessarily imply ANYTHING about ones salvation. If you understood it that way then you have a problem with thinking you know my intentions because you can't blame me in any way by what has been said on this thread.


Do you know how many Pastor's and ministers and those in ministries go to see John Piper? I have a ministry and am in school right now to become a theologian... does this exclude me then from going to church? I was an assisting pastor at a church for nine years though, at a Calvary Chapel, that is before I decided to take my theology seriously and got tired of giving man centered, humanistic sermonettes.

 

rc, As I said earlier, I am very, very angry (sinful and not righteous indignation) and cannot continue to speak with you at this point.

I, again, apologize for these feelings but will not yield to satan and continue to feed that anger, nor will I read any of your posts even if they ARE directed to me.

Thanks for understanding.

 

Wes, you have pushed that string so far that you are at the point of where you wanted this to go... so far away from conversation that you can just start making things up without being held accountable. Either way, rules or no rules you still made my point by siding with the Free will, humanistic Catholics.

And I am not going to let you get off the hook for what "Peace" said either, could John choose not to be who he was? .... Try being accountable for a change and answer the question. At least I respect Dianne no matter how much I disagree with her, she is trying to answer my questions earnestly and is not leading us on futile, of the topic rabbit trails.

 

I'll pray for the Lord to change your heart then Diane so you are able to discuss this more. And you pray for mine also, please.

RC

 

Diane,
This verse has angered many GREAT ARMINIAN students who wrestled with it for a long time... but came to peace with it... i.e.

D. James Kennedy, John Piper, J.I. Packer, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur to name a few...

ALL over THIS verse...

 

Who are you that I should be accountable to you?

If you cannot accept what I have said, that is YOUR problem not mine!

If you believe me to be wrong, prove me wrong! Otherwise, ...

[ June 29, 2005, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

This verse, IMO, does not support Universalism which teaches that all people will eventually be saved through the universal redemption of Jesus. Therefore, when someone quotes this verse in reference to the drawing ministry of God the Father, it does not make them a Universalist.

This verse is similar to Hebrews 9:22 where the author tells us, "...without shedding of blood is no remission."(KJV) The blood has been shed; there can be no doubt, and that, again IMO, is the "drawing element" mentioned in John 6:44.

God has given us Jesus Christ and His shed blood, all those who are drawn to Christ as Saviour will be lifted up as God has promised.

 

Who am I? A brother... you are accountable.
Not accepting what you said is not the problem. I do not have a problem with not accepting error.
You on the other hand do have a problem because you are teaching falsely.

You have been proven wrong ad nauseum on basically everything you've said.

Paul told Timothy to be WELL TRAINED. FROM TEACHERS...
Romans 16:17 17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught ; avoid them.

1 Timothy 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

1 Timothy 4:6 being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed

Being trained IN THE WORDS... get that? Know Greek and the rules of grammer is what Paul meant by being trained in the WORDS....

I would take Pauls advice. Take some theology and hermeneutics classes then come back.

 

--Man's FREE WILL is the problem not the solution. Man will always choose what he desires. And man will always choose evil.--

Does this count for the lost woman who volunteers her time at a homeless shelter? What about Mother Theresa? If she believed RC doctrine, she probably died lost, but didn't she do great humanitarian work? Explain how man ALWAYS chooses evil.

 

Webdog you are judging from mans standards with which is good or which is not. God judges by HIS spiritual standards....

In biblical categories a good deed is measured in TWO parts.

The first is in its OUTWARD conformity to the law of God. It is good to assist people in need... Outwardly these virtues are performed every day. Where we see them we quickly conclude that men do in fact do good things.

It is the SECOND part of the measuring that gets us in trouble. Before God pronounces a deed "good" he considers not only the outward or external conformity to his law BUT ALSO THE MOTIVATION. We look only at outward appearances, God reads the heart. It must be motivated inwardly by a sincere love for God and for HIS GLORY (do ALL things for the GLORY of GOD)

The Great commandment is to love God with ALL our HEART,all strength and our minds.

From this perspective it is easy to see that no one does good, no not one. All our righteousness is as used menstrual cloths. Our best works i.e. homeless shelter works and what Mother Teresa did is tainted by our less than pure motives. No one among us has ever loved God with all of his heart or mind in any act. There is a pound of flesh mixed in with ALL of our deeds, rendering them less than perfect.