Judas and the Lord's Supper

NO! I am using the term elect as it is used in scripture under the phrase, "the chosen of God to by used by God." You know, as in "the Jews" are God's elect! The Prophets are God's elect, The Priesthood is God's elect, The apostles are God's elect, even Judas is God's elect! This could also apply to the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah, because they became an example of God's wrath delivered against those God finds abominable. Lot was Chosen of God, but I believe that to be because of Abraham's pleading! Thus Lot was 'saved from Sodom's distruction.

And finally as used in John 17, where Jesus prays first for His Apostles, then Later prays for all who will come to believe through the teachings of the Apostles.

Yes, I believe that All who come to believe in Jesus are "the elect" because they believe and because God established, before the foundation of the world, that it is those who gain Faith in God through the teachings of the Priests, the prophets, the kings, the Apostles, that God will save into eternal life. Faith in God cometh by hearing and Hearing by the Word of God! There is no predestination of who will be believers, only a predetermination of the fate of those who become believers.

 

OK, Then define grace! Tell us exactly what grace is, where it comes from, this time be very specific and don't just say "God", because I know a whole lot of human's who also have grace and "give it".

Tell us all exactly how grace saves! Describe the way it works, the mechanics, if you will! </font>[/QUOTE]Johnp,
Are you going to slither out from under the challenge to define grace, like you did with Faith?

Are you not going to explain exactly how grace saves?

Are you not going to provide the mechanics if Grace's saving mechanism and describe it's power to do so?

 

Wes.

Grace is the demerited favour of God. God looks on some with favour and lavishes His gifts onto them through no other reason than it is God's good pleasure to do so.
Exactly how it saves is due soley to God's will because it is an act of God. In His grace towards some He endows those so chosen with the forgiveness of that person's sins and a seal that guarantees salvation and everything needed for a Godly life.
Faith is trusting in the fact that Jesus has died for my sins. This I believe.

Grace is not a thing. You can't buy it by the pound. It is an act of God. It is the way God deals with those He loves. Only those ones have God's grace towards them. God acting in a nice way towards people. The reprobate never sees it but might be affected by it from it reflecting off His Children. A secondary effect.

You say you know people with grace. Of course I've known some who give out of their need and non-Christians. I believe that God has made the world it is with order and common goodness apparently around but I believe the condition of man is as God describes us, Gen 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Therefore the people you know that are nice are nice because they have found that in their best interest. All men are like this, Christian and non-Christian. Self-interest is the number one rule for all of us and some of us get to know this.
This self-interest is only extended towards people. When self-interest comes up against the threat of Hell we chose Hell rather than God. Why? Because the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Why can't it do so? Because the sinful nature controls the mind.
After we become Christians we are still under siege from the sinful nature but the spirit regains control of the mind. Rom 7:25 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. The sinful mind is hostile to God, Romans 8:7, but a Christians mind isn't, Romans 7:25.
JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? You need a new one before you can even ask for one.

How's that for slithering? Nice little mover ain't I?

johnp.

 

DEMERITED FAVOR OF GOD? What does that mean?
Demerit: A defect, fault, A mark against one's record, especially for bad conduct!

You get two demerits for incorrect thinking about God, and his attributes!

Where did you pick up this poppycock! This is trash right out of the devil's bible.

Do you know someone who has not been blessed by God's grace?

Oh come now, you can do better than that! In your statement, what is the "it" that you call "an act of God"?

You are saying "in his grace..." I thought you said it is BY GRACE that we are Saved, now you are saying that "In his grace HE (does something)" so what is it. does Grace save, or is it God, in his grace, that saves?"

So, now you are saying that you have knowledge that something took place and you therefore have faith in that knowledge. You are one truly confused dude.

I think you completely overlook the truth that God behaves in accordance with his Grace towards ALL mankind, God so loved the world (all mankind),else those most sinful would not be able to withstand God's wrath. But God's wrath is under the control of God's Grace, therefore ALL mankind are subject to God's grace. It is while God is behaving in accordance with His grace, that we are saved through faith, and not of ourselves, salvation is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast! Thus it is that ALL mankind CAN BE SAVED THROUGH FAITH in God while God is behaving toward us in Grace (UNMERITED, "not of works" FAVOR).

There is no such thing as predestination of man in general, but there is predetermination of man's fate, generally, and God has ALREADY INVOKED that predetermination. John 3:18 whoever believes IS NOT JUDGED, but whoever believeth not is judged by their own unbelief! Those who believe in Jesus, when they die from this natural life, Pass from death into life everlasting. All others are cast into the second death which is the lake of fire of Revelation 20.

Few do it better than you!

 

johnp.,

How can the pot question the potter? Asking such questions only reveals a heart in rebellion to God.

What verse? The verse about God knitting? This does not mean God created automatons.

You can put God in a box if you want to.

There are too many scriptures that support this idea to refute it. It is a great mystery.

All are saved by Jesus' sacrifice, even those who lived during the OT. God is the same today as yesterday as tomorrow. See Hebrews.

Are you saying you demand a sign? Are you saying that God's ways must be understood? In your zeal to defend your position you go out on very thin limbs that do not support weight.

Guiding people to Christ means the same thing as guiding people to God.

That is the only way anyone can be saved from the pits of hell.

I think it's a great mystery.

 

Wes,

How do you believe Jesus is using the term 'elect' here:

Matthew 24:21-24

 

Eladar,

I believe since the topic here is "the great tribulation" that "those who are chosen" refers to the 144,000 who will come out of the great tribulation.

To whom is Jesus speaking? To His ELECT, the Disciples. Who is he referring to? Again, because the topic is the Great Tribulation, I believe he is referring to the 144,000 who will be saved out of the Tribulation. The Church will, of course, have been "snatched up" to meet the Lord in the Air before the scene that Jesus is addressing takes place.

 

Still, you must that Jesus used the term 'elect' to mean those predestined by God to be found righteous on judgement day.

You seem to be very much against the idea of predestination. How do you deal with:

Romans 9:11-21

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

Hi Eladar;

We are all predestined to be found righteous on Judgement day. However predestination is not unalterable nor is it defined as such in the Original Greek. To say that a plan cannot be change by all mighty God is wrong. There is nothing impossible with God not even the changing of a plan.

Does scripture say we are saved by predestination? No it doen't. We are saved by Jesus Christ and our faith in Him.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Eladar, Since the creation of man, there has been an estimated 10 BILLION humans who have lived on the face of the world including the 6 BILLION now living. Do you really expect us to believe that based on one set of twins written of in scripture, that ALL mankind is subject to a "THEORY of ELECTION"?

 

The verses speak to more that just one set of twins. It also mentions Pharaoh, as well as "man's desire". It seems to me that the connection to "man's desire" is what generalizes the example to include all men. The twins and Pharaoh were simply concrete examples of the general truth.

 

The examples you give are examples of God's elect! They are chosen for God's purpose, The Pharoah to stand up against God, so that God could demonstrate his power to the world, and the twins to show that birth order is not the important factor in life. They are not examples for the 9,999,999,996 other humans that are not God's elect but whom God loved so much that He Gave his only begotten son that whosoever (among all the rest) believes in HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life.

The General truth is that those individuals that are recorded in scriptures as "Players" are God's elect, chosen for their purpose, The Apostles are the elect, and their purpose was to give us Gods New Covenant so that we could all have something to put our faith in and that we could have something to hope for, and so that we could learn how God wants us to live our lives in a manner pleasing to God. We are not elect in any way except that we believe and are therefore those who will receive everlasting life with God who saves us.

Now Pastors who are not in it for the money, or because they like the power of "leading a flock", but who are truly devoted disciples of Christ who teach others to be disciples of Christ, ARE GOD's ELECT. Missionaries are God's Elect. etc. etc., because they are carrying out Jesus' Great commission. We who reach out and touch the lives of others in our work and leisure hours and show them the Jesus in us are Elect because we believe in Jesus and love him and want others to know Him as we know Him. Every believer who has abandoned or repented from sin are elect in that they have everlasting life. BUT! their election is through belief which is what God established from before the foundation of the world! Our Belief in God is God's work accomplished in us! His work is finished and it is up to us to believe and to continue to believe!

 

If this is true, then why does Paul respond as he does:

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Would not a proper reply using your line of reasoning have been:

God only predestined certain people, not you.

We are all lumps of clay created by The Potter.

 

Hi Eladar;

This is true we are but it's what you are assuming that isn't. Please read this passage about the potter. The other day another member posted this passage. and well it just seemed so appropriate I thought I'd post it here as well.
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT,

I thought you were a universalist.

 

Hi Eladar;

Thats what you get for thinking on your own. Maybe something you shouldn't do by yourself.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Eladar;
Since God lives out side of time, don't you believe we are still just clay in the potters hand.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Sorry, I didn't catch your word game. I really don't understand why you see the need to play such games.

 

Besides, you are wrong: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”


If God predestined all to be saved, then all would be saved.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

You dare speak such stuff after the hole you fell down the other day? You have a nerve! You, along with aa and Ray, did not know that Despot is what Jesus is called in the Original Greek!
Ray had said to me, "Some of us need to read a book, chapter and verse using the word, Despot. Are you sure you are not reading another religious, alleged, holy book?
I reply, "No Ray I am sure I see it somewhere in the bible."
You chipped in with, "If you do JohnP Check to see if it isn't an illusion.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Just a Christian caution to you not to venture into black holes.

Maybe if you like black holes you would care to explain to me how the Original Greek defines predestination.

We are saved by grace. Eph 2:8-9.

Just more vain human philosophy. Give one scripture to support it.

johnp.