Just what must I do to be saved?

Yelsew2 · Feb 14, 2004

Yelsew,

I believe people have saving faith because God gives it to them. God created the earth and everything in it by speaking a word. He can appoint a worm to attack Jonah's bush. He can raise the dead and give life to a valley full of dry bones. He can make himself incarnate and take upon the sins of the mass of the elect upon himself and declare them righteous. He can certainly give them faith.
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First, and foremost, we disagree on the Atonement provided by Jesus, the Christ. The scriptural elect do not constitute the whole world, and Jesus died for the sins of the world, not just a portion of the world. That Once-For-ALL Atonement by Deity for humanity, was effectual for all the sins of the world regardless of any limitations YOU, a human, want to put on it.

NO MAN is declared righteous because of the Atonement of Christ, there is no example in Scripture of that happening. The only examples of man being declared righteous are those men who had demonstrated FAITH in God. I know of no others declared righteous in God's eyes.

Yes, God can do anything God wants to do, there is no argument regarding that. However, God does not have faith. If you will trust the definition of faith that the whole world trusts, you will recognize that God has no need for FAITH! If you will recognize God's plan of Salvation for man is a completed work, Jesus declared "it is finished", then you will understand why it is incumbent upon man to come to faith in God for his salvation. Salvation is a sure thing for the one who has faith in God when he meets his appointment with death. "For it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment." The faith condition of man at that appointed time determines man's eternal destiny. If you have faith in God you live, if you do not have faith in God, you then face the second death.

"As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48).
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Jesus said " whosoever believeth in the Son of God, shall have life....", So it matters little to me what Pink and Spurgeon said. It matters an eternity what Jesus, the son of God said.

Every artifice of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this Scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man.
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Amazing that Pink ignores the words of Jesus but accepts and hinges his doctrine on the words of Luke who was not an Apostle, written to Theophilus, a secular ruler. Luke provides historical perspective to the workings of the Church. Jesus is the founder of the church!

Pink's four points mean nothing to me, because he is defending his own misinterpretation of the Holy Word of God.

Acts 13:44-51. The next Sabbath almost the whole town assembled to hear the word of God.

When they saw the crowds, the Jews, filled with jealousy, used blasphemies to contradict everything Paul said. Then Paul and Barnabas spoke out fearlessly. "We had to proclaim the word of God to you first, but since you have rejected it, since you do not think yourselves worthy of eternal life, here and now we turn to the gentiles. For this is what the Lord commanded us to do when he said: I have made you a light to the nations, so that my salvation may reach the remotest parts of the earth."

It made the gentiles very happy to hear this and they gave thanks to the Lord for his message; all who were destined for eternal life became believers. Thus the word of the Lord spread through the whole countryside.

But the Jews worked on some of the devout women of the upper classes and the leading men of the city; they stirred up a persecution against Paul and Barnabas and expelled them from their territory. So they shook the dust from their feet in protest against them and went off to Iconium; but the converts were filled with joy and the Holy Spirit.
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The phrase "all who were destined for eternal life became believers." is no different then than it is today. Under Paul and Barnabas' teaching those who "heard" the word of God and believed were saved....regenerated if you will. Thus they were "destined for eternal life". It is no different today, "Whosoever believeth in him are "DESTINED", "ORDAINED", for eternal life. The words of Jesus are clear and easy to understand. Why do you so quickly put them aside in favor of those of Pink and Spurgeon and Sproul...all men just like you and I?

Yelsew2 · Feb 15, 2004

Originally posted by cdg:
By the way I would not call myself a Calvinist, I do not follow Calvin. I follow the Bible(as best I can).
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Then you need to get a correct interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 and 9. I paraphrase, "For while God's grace prevails, we are saved through our faith, and not of ourselves, Salvation is the Gift of God not of works that we do lest any man should boast." If you consider this honestly you will see that it is consistant with all of scripture regarding Salvation being the Gift of God to mankind. Faith is not the gift, it is the only thing required of man.

With Deity completing ALL the work necessary for man's Salvation, the means of that Salvation is man's faith in God's son, God's gift of grace given to Atone for man's sins so that eternal life is possible because atonement removed the penalty for sin from man and put that penalty on God's Son the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world who died ONCE, for ALL.

PS: Faith is not an ability, it is a condition of man!

Yelsew2 · Feb 15, 2004

Romans 12:3 says in the last part of the verse "...God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. God has dealt(given) to every man some faith. So every man's faith must come from God.
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Said another way, not every man has the same measure of faith, in some faith is greater than in others, but ALL men through God's creation have faith.

Galatians 2:20 "...Faith of the Son of God..", the "of" there means that the Son of God does have faith. Its his faith. <blockquote>quote:<hr />Galatians 2:15-21. We who were born Jews and not gentile sinners have nevertheless learnt that someone is reckoned as upright not by practising the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ; and we too came to believe in Christ Jesus so as to be reckoned as upright by faith in Christ and not by practising the Law: since no human being can be found upright by keeping the Law.

Now if we too are found to be sinners on the grounds that we seek our justification in Christ, it would surely follow that Christ was at the service of sin. Out of the question! If I now rebuild everything I once demolished, I prove that I was wrong before. In fact, through the Law I am dead to the Law so that I can be alive to God. I have been crucified with Christ and yet I am alive; yet it is no longer I, but Christ living in me. The life that I am now living, subject to the limitation of human nature, I am living in faith, faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not setting aside God's grace as of no value; it is merely that if saving justice comes through the Law, Christ died needlessly.
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[/QUOTE]I think you can see that IN CONTEXT your posted scripture Gal 2:20 does not say what you want it to say.

Romans 10:17- Faith comes from hearing ,and hearing from the Word of God. Where does the Word of God come from? God. <blockquote>quote:<hr />Romans 10:14-21. How then are they to call on him if they have not come to believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard of him? And how will they hear of him unless there is a preacher for them? And how will there be preachers if they are not sent? As scripture says: How beautiful are the feet of the messenger of good news.

But in fact they have not all responded to the good news. As Isaiah says: Lord, who has given credence to what they have heard from us? But it is in that way faith comes, from hearing, and that means hearing the word of Christ.

Well then, I say, is it possible that they have not heard? Indeed they have: in the entire earth their voice stands out, their message reaches the whole world. Well, another question, then: is it possible that Israel did not understand? In the first place Moses said: I shall rouse you to jealousy with a non-people, I shall exasperate you with a stupid nation. And Isaiah is even bold enough to say: I have let myself be found by those who did not seek me; I have let myself be seen by those who did not consult me; and referring to Israel, he says: All day long I have been stretching out my hands to a disobedient and rebellious people.
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[/QUOTE]Faith itself is not contained in the Word of God, but the word of God provides the basis for faith.

Luke 17:4 "The apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith." How could He increase their faith if He possessed none? He does have faith to give to saints and sinners. <blockquote>quote:<hr />Luke 17:5-6. The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith." The Lord replied, "If you had faith like a mustard seed you could say to this mulberry tree, `Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.
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[/QUOTE]Well once again you are using scripture out of context to say what you want to believe. Did the Christ "give them more faith"? No, he told them if they but used the faith they did have they could.....

Galatians 2:16 (parts of the verse) "...by the faith of Jesus Christ... by the faith of Christ.." Of Christ, it means from Christ.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Gal 2:15-21. We who were born Jews and not gentile sinners have nevertheless learnt that someone is reckoned as upright not by practising the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ; and we too came to believe in Christ Jesus so as to be reckoned as upright by faith in Christ and not by practising the Law: since no human being can be found upright by keeping the Law. Now if we too are found to be sinners on the grounds that we seek our justification in Christ, it would surely follow that Christ was at the service of sin. Out of the question! If I now rebuild everything I once demolished, I prove that I was wrong before. In fact, through the Law I am dead to the Law so that I can be alive to God. I have been crucified with Christ and yet I am alive; yet it is no longer I, but Christ living in me. The life that I am now living, subject to the limitation of human nature, I am living in faith, faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not setting aside God's grace as of no value; it is merely that if saving justice comes through the Law, Christ died needlessly.
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[/QUOTE]Scripture speaks for itself.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith."
Kind of hurts your "First off, ALL men have faith" argument doesn't it. That does not mean all men do not have a measure of faith just that they do not have saving faith. <blockquote>quote:<hr />2 Thessalonians 3:1-5. Finally, brothers, pray for us that the Lord's message may spread quickly, and be received with honour as it was among you; and pray that we may be preserved from bigoted and evil people, for not everyone has faith (in God is implied in this context). You can rely on the Lord, who will give you strength and guard you from the evil One, and we, in the Lord, have every confidence in you, that you are doing and will go on doing all that we tell you. May the Lord turn your hearts towards the love of God and the perseverance of Christ.
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[/QUOTE]You seem to have a propensity for misusing scripture

Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the suthor and finisher of our faith..." He starts it and finishes it. Its by Him and from Him. <blockquote>quote:<hr />Hebrews 12:1-4 With so many witnesses in a great cloud all around us, we too, then, should throw off everything that weighs us down and the sin that clings so closely, and with perseverance keep running in the race which lies ahead of us. Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, who leads us in our faith and brings it to perfection: for the sake of the joy which lay ahead of him, he endured the cross, disregarding the shame of it, and has taken his seat at the right of God's throne. Think of the way he persevered against such opposition from sinners and then you will not lose heart and come to grief. In the fight against sin, you have not yet had to keep fighting to the point of bloodshed.
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Revelatians 2:13 "... and hast not denied my faith..." Whose faith Christ's faith. So He must have faith. He said it Himself.
I can in a way give you faith, not the same way God does though. When one sees the pictures of Mars, one believes there is a Mars. Why because someone showed us a picture of it, they gave us faith. God gives faith through His Word. Sir, you are going against clear Scripture. I can say there is no moon but there it is outside. You can say God has no faith and He gives no faith, but there it is in Scripture.
And if it is faith "in God" why does it not say that. It says faith of(from) God. Have a nice day. <blockquote>quote:<hr />Rev 2:12-17. `Write to the angel of the church in Pergamum and say, `Here is the message of the one who has the sharp sword, double-edged: I know where you live, in the place where Satan is enthroned, and that you still hold firmly to my name, and did not disown your faith in me even when my faithful witness, Antipas, was killed among you, where Satan lives.

`Nevertheless, I have one or two charges against you: some of you are followers of Balaam, who taught Balak to set a trap for the Israelites so that they committed adultery by eating food that had been sacrificed to idols; and among you too there are some also who follow the teaching of the Nicolaitans. So repent, or I shall soon come to you and attack these people with the sword out of my mouth. Let anyone who can hear, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches: to those who prove victorious I will give some hidden manna and a white stone, with a new name written on it, known only to the person who receives it.'
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[/QUOTE]Well, Scripture once again fails your vain attempt to misuse it.

BBNewton · Feb 15, 2004

Yelsew,

You stated:

"I believe that Sproul falls into the same trap that most all Calvinists do, they do not accept man in the way that God made man."

I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Do you believe that all people are sinful because of Adam's sin? Or do you believe people are born innocent and fall as Adam fell when they individually commit sin?

2. Are people justified because of obedience to a command? Ex: God commands people to believe, therefore by obeying this command they are justified.

Yelsew2 · Feb 15, 2004

BBNewton,

1. Do you believe that all people are sinful because of Adam's sin? Or do you believe people are born innocent and fall as Adam fell when they individually commit sin?
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I don't have an "either/or" answer. But I'll state my belief as briefly as possible. Adam's sin was disobedience of God. Man has, ever since, had a propensity to disobey God, and I might add all authority. It is most apparent in the "breaking away" years of youth, and manifests itself in behavior including rebellion against and from authority. The first time a child sins, it is a sin of disobedience of parental authority.

So, Yes, man has a propensity to sin in the same way that Adam sinned, and it is passed from generation to generation. Just as Adam was not "Totally Depraved", None of us is either. Scriptures admonish Children to "obey your parents". And one of the Ten commandments is, Exodus 20:12. "Honour your father and your mother so that you may live long in the land that Yahweh your God is giving you". So the first sin that man does in life is disobey, just...like...Adam!

2. Are people justified because of obedience to a command? Ex: God commands people to believe, therefore by obeying this command they are justified.
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No! People are justified by Jesus Atonement for Sin. Without that once for all atonement, there could be NO everlasting life for man. "For all have sinned", "the wage for sin is death". Therefore since all sinned, and the penalty for sin is death, Everlasting life is not possible. HOWEVER, God sent his son to be the propitiation for sin, that is, to pay the penalty by means of His own death. He died, sins are atoned for, and the penalty for sin has been removed from the guilty and placed on the innocent. THUS it is that Mankind is Justified in the sight of God.

That however, is not SALVATION! It merely enables Salvation by eliminating sin with its penalty from being a factor in Salvation. Salvation of man remains by human faith in God while God's grace prevails. Those who have such faith are saved, those who do not are cast into the lake of fire. Scriptures tell us that Salvation is not of works. And sins, like works are deeds that get judged for each person regardless of one's faith condition. Then the final judgment which is not faced by believers, is the casting of those whose names are not found in the book of life, into the lake of fire. So how does one's name get into the book of live? Jesus said Whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. That means that when one believes, one's name is entered into the book of life.

Now there are warnings too about having your name "blotted from" the book of life. So it is imperative that one be aware that "falling away" is a distinct possibility. That we are encouraged to persevere to the end, which is the end of this natural life, is yet another sign that the possibility of falling away exists. All the signs do not mean that falling away is inevitable, but you have been warned.

I recognize that my believe is not "Bible Style", but when you cook it down what I have posted is what is left!

cdg · Feb 16, 2004

Yelsew,

I wondered HOW you would answer my argument. You did by changing Scripture. You say I misuse it ,and then you change it to fit your beliefs.

Again, simply from Scripture "...through faith, that not of yourselves it is the gift of God." I do not misuse it.

Again, you change Scripture to fit your belief. The Scripture says "God hath dealt(given) to every man the measure of faith." And if God created us then He must have given us it.
You said, "ALL men through God's creation have faith." So God gave faith to man.

I do not know if your quote from Galatains is your own version or someone else's, but if it is not from the KJV, then it is not acceptable to me. And your argument holds no ground. That and the fact that the KJB says "...faith of Christ..." The context(in the right Bible) does not change the verse or its meaning.

Sir, you have used the context of the surrounding verses apparently to show my verses are out of context. But the whole passage does not change the words or meaning of any passage(unless you use another version). I admit I was wrong on one passage(the one from Luke). But in the rest of the verses I strongly disagree with you.

Again, for Romans 10 you use another version which means nothing to me. Defend your view with the KJV and it will be a valid defense.

You are right. I shouldnt have used Luke 17:4. I apologize for it.

Again, you are changing Scripture to fit your point of view.

I agree with you, the Scripture does speak for itself. So please use the KJV. You keep changing the version. But thank you, this just proves there are differences between versions.

The context is obvious, "...delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith." Delivered from these men why? Because these men do not have faith(saving faith, in my opinion). You implied all men have faith and not just faith but saving faith and it is up to them to exercise it, but the Bible disagrees.

Sir, I appreciate your avid defense of your belief but still I must strongly disagree because of the already mentioned Scriptures.

Please, help me to understand. Forgive me if I have missed your explanation. How does man have faith? If it comes not from God, how does man get it?

humbleherc · Feb 16, 2004

God Bless you to,Bro Dallas Eaton

Originally posted by Frogman:
Hello herc,
Welcome to the BaptistBoard and to the C/A Forum.

May God Bless you.

Bro. Dallas Eaton
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Yelsew2 · Feb 16, 2004

So God gave faith to man.
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NO!

God gave man the capacity, or faculty, with which to have faith. He did not give man FAITH!

God gave man the capacity, or faculty with which to believe. He did not give man belief.

God gave man the capacity, or faculty with which to see. God does not see for us!

God gave man the capacity, or faculty with which to hear. God does not hear for us.

God gave man the capacity, or faculty with which to have grace. God does not give us grace!

God gave man the capacity, or faculty with which to love. God does not love for us.

God did not give man the capacity or faculty with which we can save ourselves. God saves us!

WE ARE MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD. WE ARE NOT GOD!

Yelsew2 · Feb 16, 2004

Sir, you have used the context of the surrounding verses apparently to show my verses are out of context. But the whole passage does not change the words or meaning of any passage(unless you use another version). I admit I was wrong on one passage(the one from Luke). But in the rest of the verses I strongly disagree with you.
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Your argument is not with me, it is with the 38 bible scholars who translated the version that I use. So take it up with them!

By the way, I have studied under some prominent bible expositors. Swindoll, Stanley, Sproul, Smith, Hadden Robinson, and many others. Their translation of those verses though worded slightly different than what I posted, mean exactly what the words I posted mean. I'll stick with what I've got since it conveys the meaning in Context and does not change the message being conveyed.

It is your literalist approach to scriptures that keeps you in trouble! I read Ephesians 2:8 and 9 in the context of the whole of the Gospel, and throughout the scriptures it is FAITH that is met with SALVATION, and it is Grace that brings FAITH. If you do not see that then you are in serious trouble. God one day will remove his Grace from the heavens and the earth. What ya gonna do then? That is, God will allow His judgment to be his dominant attribute. He will behave toward man with judgment in the place of Grace. That is in accordance with BIBLE PROPHESY!

humbleherc · Feb 16, 2004

Yelsew it's evident you know nothing of the gift of God.

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sir, you have used the context of the surrounding verses apparently to show my verses are out of context. But the whole passage does not change the words or meaning of any passage(unless you use another version). I admit I was wrong on one passage(the one from Luke). But in the rest of the verses I strongly disagree with you.

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Your argument is not with me, it is with the 38 bible scholars who translated the version that I use. So take it up with them!

By the way, I have studied under some prominent bible expositors. Swindoll, Stanley, Sproul, Smith, Hadden Robinson, and many others. Their translation of those verses though worded slightly different than what I posted, mean exactly what the words I posted mean. I'll stick with what I've got since it conveys the meaning in Context and does not change the message being conveyed.

It is your literalist approach to scriptures that keeps you in trouble! I read Ephesians 2:8 and 9 in the context of the whole of the Gospel, and throughout the scriptures it is FAITH that is met with SALVATION, and it is Grace that brings FAITH. If you do not see that then you are in serious trouble. God one day will remove his Grace from the heavens and the earth. What ya gonna do then? That is, God will allow His judgment to be his dominant attribute. He will behave toward man with judgment in the place of Grace. That is in accordance with BIBLE PROPHESY! [/QUOTE]

Yelsew2 · Feb 17, 2004

Originally posted by herc:
Yelsew it's evident you know nothing of the gift of God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew2:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sir, you have used the context of the surrounding verses apparently to show my verses are out of context. But the whole passage does not change the words or meaning of any passage(unless you use another version). I admit I was wrong on one passage(the one from Luke). But in the rest of the verses I strongly disagree with you.

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Your argument is not with me, it is with the 38 bible scholars who translated the version that I use. So take it up with them!

By the way, I have studied under some prominent bible expositors. Swindoll, Stanley, Sproul, Smith, Hadden Robinson, and many others. Their translation of those verses though worded slightly different than what I posted, mean exactly what the words I posted mean. I'll stick with what I've got since it conveys the meaning in Context and does not change the message being conveyed.

It is your literalist approach to scriptures that keeps you in trouble! I read Ephesians 2:8 and 9 in the context of the whole of the Gospel, and throughout the scriptures it is FAITH that is met with SALVATION, and it is Grace that brings FAITH. If you do not see that then you are in serious trouble. God one day will remove his Grace from the heavens and the earth. What ya gonna do then? That is, God will allow His judgment to be his dominant attribute. He will behave toward man with judgment in the place of Grace. That is in accordance with BIBLE PROPHESY! [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Feel free to teach us all exactly what the Gift of God is!

Yelsew2 · Feb 17, 2004

Herc said,

Yelsew it's evident you know nothing of the gift of God.
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Well sir, feel free to teach us all exactly what the Gift of God is, but don't be surprised that you too may learn a thing or two.

Yelsew2 · Feb 17, 2004

Herc said,

Yelsew it's evident you know nothing of the gift of God.
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Well sir, feel free to teach us all exactly what the Gift of God is, but don't be surprised that you too may learn a thing or two.

cdg · Feb 17, 2004

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.

God does give grace.

Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.

James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.

God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.

God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.

Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.

Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I got because it IS the Word of God.

If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.

Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I believe God's dominant attribute will always be His holiness. Now, He will exercise judgment and wrath but He will not have changed priority in attributes but only showered His cup of wrath and indignation on the earth. God will decide when man's space to repent is completed and then He will exercise judgment on them. I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.

Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

cdg · Feb 17, 2004

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.

God does give grace.

Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.

James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.

God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.

God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.

Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.

Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.

If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.

Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I believe God's dominant attribute will always be His holiness. Now, He will exercise judgment and wrath but He will not have changed priority in attributes but only showered His cup of wrath and indignation on the earth. God will decide when man's space to repent is completed and then He will exercise judgment on them. I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.

Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

cdg · Feb 17, 2004

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.

God does give grace.

Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.

James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.

God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.

God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.

Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.

Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.

If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.

Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I believe God's dominant attribute will always be His holiness. Now, He will exercise judgment and wrath but He will not have changed priority in attributes but only showered His cup of wrath and indignation on the earth. God will decide when man's space to repent is completed and then He will exercise judgment on them. I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.

Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

cdg · Feb 17, 2004

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.

God does give grace.

Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.

James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.

God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.

God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.

Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.

Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.

If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.

Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I believe God's dominant attribute will always be His holiness. Now, He will exercise judgment and wrath but He will not have changed priority in attributes but only showered His cup of wrath and indignation on the earth. God will decide when man's space to repent is completed and then He will exercise judgment on them. I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.

Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

cdg · Feb 17, 2004

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.

God does give grace.

Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.

James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.

God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.

God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.

Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.

Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.

If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.

Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I believe God's dominant attribute will always be His holiness. Now, He will exercise judgment and wrath but He will not have changed priority in attributes but only showered His cup of wrath and indignation on the earth. God will decide when man's space to repent is completed and then He will exercise judgment on them. I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.

Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

cdg · Feb 17, 2004

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.

God does give grace.

Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.

James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.

God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.

God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.

Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.

Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.

If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.

Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.

Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

cdg · Feb 17, 2004

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.
God does give grace.
Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.
James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"
There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.
God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.
God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.
Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.
Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.
If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.
Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.
Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

Just what must I do to be saved?

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