Justice: God's perspective vs. man's perspective

Romans 5:12-21 has nothing to do whatsoever with Post-physical birth actions or decisions by those defined as "many."

You are attempting to use other scriptures outside this context that deal with POST-birth individual and conditional decisions/actions with their consequences and insert it into this context which does not deal with POST-birth or Individual decisions and conditional consquences.

This context deals with PRE-birth decisions and actions by only TWO men as REPRESENTATIVES of "many" whereby the many are "MADE" to be something without regard to any conditional consequences determined by their own individual presence, decisions or actions.

Adam's representative decision and action occurred in the garden before Cain was physically born and that representative descision and action "MADE" Cain a sinner BY NATURE in his birth, spiritually dead in sin , apart from any conditions, decisions or actions made by Cain. All future personal and conditional decisions and actions manifest that nature rather than produced that nature.

Likewise, Christ's representative obedience occurred 2000 years before you were spiritually born and that representative obedience "MADE" you righteous by nature in your spiritual birth, apart from any conditions, decisions or actions you made (Jn. 1;13). All future personal and conditional decisions and actions manifested that nature rather than produced that nature.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The decision and actions of these two men alone "MADE" those they represented EFFECTUALLY to be either "sinners" by nature at physical birth or "righteous" by nature at new birth.

Yes, I have simply repeated what I said and you were wise not to include it in your post as it would have shown that although you may not like what I said you could not respond to what I said. Why should I move if you have no answers???? So I simply repost what I said.

 

They have to be, as even those in Christ are sinners (in Adam). The "so as" does indeed connect them.

Agreed, however one is a sinner (in Adam) in the same way Adam was...by sinning. A sinner by definition is one who sins. We are also in Christ ("so as...") in the same way, by sharing in His birth, death and resurrection through faith.

One is not in Christ apart from faith, you misuse that text.

Agreed.

 

All who are "in Christ" were "in Adam" but not all who are "in Adam" are "in Christ.

You are not "in Adam" because you sinned after physical birth. You are "in Adam" because HE SINNED before you were born and you sinned "in Adam" because he represented you when HE SINNED. You were born with a sinful nature and you sinned not to get "in Adam" but because YOU WERE ALREADY AS SINNER IN ADAM and your sins simply made that manfiest. You did not sin to become "in Adam" but you sinned because you were "in Adam."

In the same way, all those represented by Christ "SHALL BE made righteous." You are "in Christ" because HE OBEYED before you were born and you obeyed "in Christ" because he represented you when HE OBEYED. You were born again with a righteous nature and you obeyed not to get "in Christ" but because YOU WERE ALREADY RIGHTEOUS IN CHRIST and your obedience simply made that manfiest. You did not obey to become "in Christ" but you obeyed because you were "in Christ."

Both contrasting comparisons were EFFECTUAL. ALL represented by Adam were MADE sinners by his one act just as ALL represented by Christ SHALL BE MADE righteous by his obedience.

You were not individually and personally present, nor did you make any individual conditional choice or action that MADE YOU A SINNER but Adam made that conditional choice and action for you. Likewise, you were not individually and personally present, nor did you make any individual conditional choice or action that MADE YOU RIGHTEOUS but Christ made that conditional choice and action for you.

Adam had already made the conditional choice before Cain was physically born and the proof is that Cain was born with a sinful nature and his personal choice to sin manifested he was a SINNER IN ADAM rather than procurred it. Cain exercised no personal choice in being born or being born with a sinful nature.

Likewise, Christ had already made the conditional choice of obedience for you before you were ever BORN AGAIN and the proof that you were MADE RIGHTEOUS BY NEW BIRTH - CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS - CREATED IN TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS BY NEW BIRTH is manifested by all consequential personal choices including to choose to obey the gospel and all other commands of God after being new birthed. You exercised no personal choice in being born again any more than Cain exercised any personal choice by being born physically. Cain was effectually made a sinner by representation and physical birth just as you were effectually made righteous by representation and spiritual birth without personal exercise of your will (Jn. 1:13; Gal. 1:15-16).

 

Again, you are making "matter of fact" statements without support. Where in Scripture does it qualify some passages as being Post-birth and others pre? Even in the actual context we are discussing Paul acknowledges that death comes "BECAUSE ALL SINNED." Unless you can find me a passage which clearly makes the distinction you are presuming this discussion is over because I'm not arguing with baseless claims.

Again, I KNOW your position, you don't have to keep restating it. You need to support it biblically. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. I say Cain had the ability to make choices.

Let me ask you a question, when tempted to kill could Cain have done otherwise? Could he have resisted killing his brother? What about Adam before the fall, could he have done otherwise? Could he have resisted temptation?

Eventhough you merely dismiss my texts as being "post-birth" related I will address the one proof text you submit.

You need to look at the whole of the verse: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

NOTICE: You are NOT even given the RIGHT to become a child of God UNTIL you have received him, but you would have us believe that you must be born as his child PRIOR to receiving him. You got your cart before your horse brother.

Why reply to baseless claims? I can argue all day the sky is green without any support backing up my claim whatsoever but unless I provide a sound and supported defense for my claim there would be no point to respond. There is nothing to refute. No evidence to counter. Only an unfounded baseless opinion of a stranger.

 

I don't think we we are arguing that all men are "in Christ." We are arguing as Paul stated, "the free gift came to all men," the same "all men" who Adam represented.

Christ's death for the sin of world completely satisfied God's wrath in regard to mankind's sin (breaking of the law). The reason mankind is going to be condemned at judgement is because of unbelief, not because they broke the rules. The Law has been fulfilled and the wrath appeased, the only condition for salvation is faith and thus the only reason a person won't enter heaven is because of unbelief. Here are texts that support this view, you need to deal with them:

2 Thess. 2:10: "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

Jesus said, "I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." (Jn 12)

What condemn's mankind on the last day? Is it the imputed sin of Adam? NOPE! What does He say? The "very word which I spoke will condemn him." What is that "word?" The gospel truth!

"For I did not come to judge the world" based upon the "righteousness that comes through the law"....or Adam's imputed sin. But instead there is a "new righteousness being revealed" (Rm 3) which is not from LAW but through faith...this is what Christ has revealed as the "WORD." It is by that "NEW RIGHTEOUSNESS" that "WORD OF CHRIST" by which we are judged. If someone is condemned, he is condemned for his UNBELIEF (Rm 11:23; Heb 3 etc)

19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief!

John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Cor. 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

2 Peter 2:1:They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign LORD who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

 

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

These representative men are NOT representing the same "many." This is clearly seen in verse 16. All men without exception come into this world EFFECTUALLY condemned already (Jn. 3:18) becuase of the judgement pronounced upon Adam. However, not all men without exception EFFECTUALLY receive the free gift "UNTO JUSTIFICATION." This latter benefit is just as effectual as the former (condemnation) but to two different groups of mankind. The former is mankind IN Adam whereas the latter is mankind IN Christ and not all that are IN Adam are IN Christ but all that are IN Christ have been IN Adam.

Notice the same EFFECTUAL APPLICATION is seen in verse 17 as well. Death over ALL MANKIND reigned by one - that is EFFECTUALLY the case for every single person represented by Adam. However, notice the qualifying words by contrast - "much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift" thus limiting the "many" represented by Christ to only those "in Christ." However, the grace and gift are EFFECTUAL - "shall reign in life."

Furthermore, the same effectual application to each "many" is seen in verse 19:

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

It is the one act of Adam that effectually "MADE" all men without exception represented by him to be sinners. Adam sinned as the representative for all mankind, so when he sinned they sinned (v. 12) and thus were "MADE" sinners and this is manifested at birth in their nature as soon as they be born (Psa. 58:3). They were "made sinners" by nature at the point in time when Adam sinned as the whole human nature died spiritually and Cain was conceived with a sinful nature because He sinned IN Adam when Adam sinned.

Likewise, the act of obedience by Christ "SHALL MANY BE MADE" righteous. Christ obeyed as the representative for all ("the many") that shall "BE MADE rightoues". Obviously, not all in Adam "shall be made righteous" and so the "many" reprsented by Christ are not the "many" represented by Adam.

Being made righteous for "the many" in Christ is as effectual as being "made sinners" for the many in Adam. ALL humans were in Adam and all humans were effectually "made sinners" by Adam's representative act in their behalf without their individual presence, consent or individual choice, or individual actions. All humans in Christ "shall be made righteous" without their individual consent, actions or choice and it will manifested in their birth as well - new birth (Jn. 1:13) as a creative act of God (Eph. 2:10).

Just as Cain came forth from the womb by nature a sinner, inclined to choose sin and hate righteousness so also every person represented by Christ will come forth from the spiritual womb of new birth righteous by nature, inclined to choose the things of God and hate unrighteousness.

 

Since you rarely address my posts and the supportive passages I provide this conversation seems very "one-way" and I don't see the benefit in that. Blessings to you.

 

Roman 5:12-21 deals only with TWO MEN, their decisions and actions as representative and CAUSUAL in regard to those they represent. You ignore this and appeal to contexts that deal with CONSEQUENTIAL personal individual decisions and actions in trying to interpret Rom. 5:12-21.

You completely ignore the fact that the actions and decisions by these TWO MEN are EFFECTUAL in their consequences upon those they represent rather than conditioned by the individual decisions and actions of those being represented. You were made a sinner by nature at the precise point Adam sinned and the proof is you were born into this world spiritually dead and sinful before you made any personal decision or responsible action (Psa. 58:3). Your were birthed with a fallen sinful nature as inseparable consequences of Adam's representation in your behalf. Likewise, you were new birthed with a righteous nature as inseparable consequences of Christ's representation in your behalf. Adam's representation effectually made sinners of ALL that were "in Adam" by representation and Christ's representation effectually made righteous ALL that were "in Christ" by representation.

Instead of defining the consequences by the cause (two men's decisions and actions) you are attempting to define the consequences by the consequences or the personal decisions and actions of those being represented. Thus you are defining the cause to be the effect and the effect to be the cause. Romans 5 deals with the cause and it is not found in the consequential decisions and actions of the "many" in either case but solely in the actions and decisions of the representatives.

 

you clearly never read my posts. I argued, which scriptural support, that God doesn't condemn men for their sin (breaking the law) because the cross appeased His wrath completely "once for all." The ONLY thing men are condemned for is UNBELIEF. The point is that WHAT ADAM CAUSED, CHRIST UNDID, thus "the free gift came to all men." <---Paul's words, not mine.

Now, restate your Calvinistic position again while ignoring my posts....

 

The ONE condition for salvation is faith, so if the LAW is fulfilled and the wrath is appeased, then UNBELIEF is the ONE thing that separates us from heaven.

Deal with the texts I presented. Start with just these 5:

1. "So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief!"

2. "...whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

3. "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them."

4. "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

5. "I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

 

Unbelief is not sin, it is the condition of the heart that determines whether unbelief is sin. Of course the person who doesn't believe in Christ is sinning, but it is because of their inflated view of self, not just the sake of unbelief.
I don't think either of us would say the other is sinning due to holding to different theological conclusions. I do not believe your views are correct in regards to salvation, and you do not believe I am correct, so if all unbelief is sin, we are both sinning in that regard.

 

It looks like you are contradicting yourself WD.

 

It looks like you are chopping up my post to say what you want it to say, rippon. I know context can be tough, but it was not that long of a post.

 

I read your posts and you are reading into the Romans 5:12-21 text what is not there.

Listen "All" have not sinned the way you are reading that text because all of mankind has not even yet been born much less sinned.

Paul's argument is that "all have sinned" in Adam's act of sin BEFORE they are even born. They sinned "in Adam" by his representative act.

You are trying to read into this text PERSONAL and individual conditions, actions and decisions as the CAUSE for personal condemnation, death and judgement and this text does not address that at all. It addresses the acts and decisions of only TWO MEN as the cause of all consequences IMPUTED to those they represent WITHOUT their personal decisions or actions.

You are attempting to reverse the text and make the CAUSE in the decisions and actions of those represented instead of the CAUSE in the decisions and actions of just TWO MEN.

This is what you must do in order to escape the plain teaching of this passage. You must REVERSE it.

Paul is defining the CAUSE produced solely by the decisions and actions of just TWO REPRESENTATIVE MEN while you are defining the CAUSE as produced solely by the decisions and actions of whom they represent. Paul is demanding the CONSEQUENCES are not the CAUSE of personal individual decisions and actions the decisions and actions of just TWO REPRESENTATIVE MEN while you are demanding the CAUSE is due to the CONSEQUENCES of the personal and individaul decisions of those they represent.

What you do not get is that "ALL HAVE SINNED" before they were born "in Adam."

 

You said that unbelief is not sin. You also said that "Of course the person who doesn't believe in Christ is sinning." Yep, that's still a contradiction no matter how you try to spin it WD.

 

Rip, you are getting confused again. It was sin before it was not sin.

 

I'm not reading it into the text, I'm looking at the whole of scripture and allowing scripture to interpret scripture. The passages I have presented CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY SHOW that God does NOT condemn men for breaking the law...i.e. "eating the fruit of the forbidden tree."

Paul, in Romans 3, explains all this when he wrote: "19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So, you can argue all day long that we are all condemned sinners because of what Adam did, but that has been negated in Christ. Paul clearly shows that all those who have fallen short of God's Glory through sin, were "being justified freely by his grace through redemption that is in Christ."

How does one fall short? Through sinning.
How is one justified? Through faith.

This is a FREE GIFT brought to ALL MEN, according to Paul's very own words...the same "all men" who Adam represented when sinning and the same "all men" who fall short of God's glory in Romans 3....and the same men who were "bought" in 2 Peter 2:1...

The cause for condemnation, judgement, death and sin entering the world was Adam's choice. The cause for me being a condemned sinner was my choice to sin. A choice I made based upon my fallen and sinful nature in a fallen and sinful world, but MY choice nonetheless. In that regard, I think we agree at least on some level. If you want to argue that I was condemned because of what Adam did and I want to argue that I am condemned because of what I did, does it really matter? Either way, I am condemned as is everyone else. But, the point of our contention really revolves around what Christ accomplished for "all" those who are "condemned," regardless of the "cause" for their condemnation.

My argument is that God, because of Christ's atoning work, doesn't look at the sin of Adam anymore. The LAW has been FULFILLED. The WRATH has been APPEASED, once and for all! "THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH LOVE."

The reason men go to hell, is NOT because God's wrath for their breaking the law (i.e. Adam eating the forbidden fruit), that has been covered for EVERYONE!!!!

1 John 2:2:
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

I know, I know, you think that means "the elect of the whole world" or "chosen from all peoples of the world," but that IS you reading your theology into the text. The truth is that SIN has been CONCURRED ONCE AND FOR ALL and the only thing that will keep men from the kingdom of God is unbelief. FAITH is the means for the WHOLE WORLD...WHOSOEVER...to be saved, period.

As scripture says, "we see that they were not able to enter (the promised land), because of their unbelief."

You have yet to deal with any of those passages...

 

*sigh*...not contradiction, just poor reading comprehension on your part. Here is the ENTIRE statement that I said which you conveniently left most off when you quoted me... "Unbelief is not sin, it is the condition of the heart that determines whether unbelief is sin"

You don't believe me...are you sinning by doing this? You would have to be if unbelief in itself is sin. Would Eve had sinned if she did not believe the serpent? Would Adam had sinned had he not believed Eve?