Featured Justification - Rome versus Baptists

No more than you do!

1. Do dying infants go through progressive santification?

2. Do deaht bed conversion go through progressive sanctification like the theif on the cross?

3. Do all saints experience the same length or maturity of progressive sanctification?


The answer to all the above is NO! So the quantity and quality is up to God in each case isn't it?

 

The Catholic Church Catechism expressly and clearly states that Old Testament circumcision was sacramental in the same sense of New Testament baptism and I can requote the CCC if necessary to prove this.

Romans 4:9-11 completely repudiates circumcision as sacramental. Romans 4:9-11 explicitly teaches that Abraham is being set forth as the "father of all who believe" in regard to the relationship between justification by grace and its direct connection with the only divine ordinance existent in his day and the verdict is that ALL who are justified are justified WITHOUT and APART from such divine ordinances.

The whole Roman Catholic ecclesiology and soteriology is built squarely upon their doctrine of sacramentalism and if that doctrine falls the whole Roman Catholic Theology crashes and burns in its totality.

So, TS can interpret the "law" and "the works of the law" any way he pleases in Romans 2-5 but the CCC refuses to allow him to interpret circumcision and its relationship to baptism any way he pleases AND Romans 4:9-11 refuses to allow him to defend circumcision as sacramental in its relationship to the grace of justification.

 

Well said! And it is imputed "by faith" !

 

You simply do not know what you are talking about! You may be fighting someone's elses point of view but certainly not mine.

I believe that progressive sanctification always occurs regardless how short a life that may be lived or how long a life that may be lived.

I believe that the rate of progression varies from person to person. For example, the difference between a man like Abraham versus his nephew like Lot. I believe that ultimately God determines the measure of faith and grace provided every believer (Rom. 12:3,7).

I deny a person can be justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without regeneration and good works also in its accompaniment.

 

Where have I ever said that regeneration is progressive????? I do not believe regeneration is progressive. I never have believed regeneration is progressive. I have always pointed out that regeneration and justification both are punticillar completed actions in the past that stand completed. It is sanctification that has its roots in regeneration that is progressive.

My oh my, that is just the beginning of where we disagree in soteriology.

Whooooaaaa horsey!!! My view of works and the Roman Catholic view of works is the difference between night and day.

No such TWO stage animal! No such thing as faith in faith. Believing has for its object Jesus Christ. Justifying faith is RECEIVING and RESTING in the promise of God's sufficient provision in Christ. Moreover, regeneration is only the entry point in time and space to salvation but salvation has its root in the eternal elective purpose of God before the world began. Neither do we agree on the nature of regeneration as your next comment demosntrates.

The inward man has been created by regeneration. Our "walk" or progressive sanctification which is the working out of the inward man, the new creation and thus the putting on of the new man in our life has its source in what God created/regenerated/quickened in us. Regeneration is not progressive but a one time punctillar creative act of God that produced a new nature/inward man created in true holiness and righteousness within us from whence progressive sanctification has its source and from the Indwelling Spirit of God from whence progressive sanctification has its power.

We disagree on so much here. Regeneration is not progressive but punctillar creative act of God. Sanctification and regeneration are in a cause and effect relationship and sanctification is "good works" or the righteousness of Christ being imparted progressively by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. And so "good works" = progressive sanctification empowered by the Holy Spirit so that "good works" have their source of goodness in the new nature and their manifestation in the Christians life by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.

The difference between you and I here lies in your constant use of the term "salvation" in the above sentence. The term "salvation" is far too broad when speaking about a subject which is so specific and which is far more restrictive than the broad unbrella term "salvation." The truth is that "good works" is one aspect WITHIN the larger unbrella term of "salvation" but specifically restricted to one aspect of "salvation" called "progressive sanctification" which is NOT regeneration but the effect of regeneration as regeneration is not progressive but punctilliar creative act of God that produced a new nature and sanctification is the working out of that new nature into the life of the believer progressively and incremently by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.

So to describe my view that "good works" is an "excessory part of salvation" is incorrect. Salvation is inclusive of many aspects and "good works" is found WITHIN one specific aspect of "salvation" which without there is no "salvation" in its broadest sense.

Again, let me spell my position out in clear terms. The term "salvation" is synonymous with the eternal redemptive purpose of God which INCLUDES election, foreknowledge, predestination, the representative work of Christ, regeneration, justification, progressive sanctification, glorification. The subject of "good works" are found and restricted in the aspect called "progressive sanctification." Progressive sanctification is not a synonym with regeneration but is the EFFECT of regeneration and the indwelling Spirit of God in the life of the believer (righteousness originating from the new creation within/new man/inward man; and power to manifest it in the life of the believer originating from the indwelling Spirit of Christ).

Here is the crux of our disagreement. Catholicism confuses regeneration with progressive sanctification. Catholicism insists that regeneration is a "process" when it is not and Greek grammar proves it is not a process as it is never presented in the present tense or tense of incompleted action but it is always presented in the tense of completed action (Aorist) and confirmed by verbs that demand a completed action ("created" "quickened" etc.).

The church and ordinances, prayer, etc., all have their place in progressive sanctification as instrumental means used by the indwelling Holy Spirit to mature us or bring us along in progressive sanctification. They have no place in election, foreknowledge, predestination, regeneration, justification or glorification. The larger unbrella term "salvation" can be subdivided into three tenses (1) Saved; (2) being saved; (3) shall be saved and the various aspects within salvation can be divided as follows:

1. Saved = elective purpose, foreknowledge, predestination, representative work of Christ; regeneration, justification/adoption

2. Being Saved = fruits of the Spirit, church membership, ordinances, prayer, redeeming the time; filled with the Spirit, walking after the Spirit; good works

3. Shall be saved = glorification of the body, removal of indwelling sin; removal of corruptive principle; rewards; position in heaven; etc.

CONCLUSION: Regeneration is not a progression but a completed act that produced an inward NEW NATURE. This New nature is not being completed or in progression to be completed but has been completed. This new nature is created in true holiness and righteousness. The IMPACT or EFFECTS of this new nature is determined by the Indwelling Spirit of God in whom exists the POWER to APPLY the righteous and holy desires of this new INWARD MAN to our thoughts/affections and will which in turn makes it manifest by our attitudes and actions which IS progressive sanctification or redeeming the time by our works.

 

My statements are fine and neither teach that regeneration is a PROGRESSIVE ACT. Regeneration is the completed action of being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to light - puntillar action. Regeneration is the punctilliar completed action of the dead being made alive - quickened. Regeneration is the punctilliar act of CREATION of a new nature.

This completed act that brings into existence a NEW NATURE is the "source" from which the Holy Spirit puts on that nature created in true holiness and righteousness in the life of the believer progressively which is called progressive sanctification.

The problem is not with my wording but with your reading into my wording a Roman Catholic perspective.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that God does not give seeing eyes which do not see anything or hearing ears which do not hear anything. When God gives faith it is not a blind and deaf faith but a faith in something -Jesus Christ. On the other hand you are saying God gives seeing eyes that do not see and hearing ears that hear nothing as both what is seen and heard comes later.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that regeneration and conversion are simeletaneous in action and inseparable as cause and effects or the bullet and the hole analogy. Logically NOT CHRONOLOGICALLY quickening precedes faith but CHRONOLOGICALLY they are simeletaneous in action.

The term "sanctification" is used both in the incompleted action tenses and the completed action tenses. In the completed action tenses it does not refer to the life of the believer but to God setting him apart by other aspects of salvation such as election, or representation by Christ, or by regeneration wherein man is PASSIVE in all of these aspects. Whereas progressive sanctification the subject is ACTIVE and participating with God.

Of course in the larger or broader perspective of the term "salvation" and more particular in the more restrictive present tense "being saved" aspect of salvation and then even more restrictive sense in "progressive sanctification."

You are not understanding what I am saying. Regeneration by its own inherent nature must be a completed punctilliar act as there is no middle ground between spiritual death and spiritual life just as there is no middle ground between uncreated and created. Regeneration provides the RIGHTEOUS NATURE or NEW MAN or INWARD MAN which has been created in true holiness and righteousness. However, that new man must be PUT ON in our life. Progressive sanctification is the putting on of this new man in our life which is a progressive incremental up and down, gain and loss progressive action that is only completed and perfected at glorification. It begins with regeneration but it is not regeneration.

 

Ah! Now you have shifted from wanting to understand my position to attempting to make a rebuttal of my position. First understand it so you can deal with it correctly. Later we will debate its Biblical merits.

The reason you cannot understand my position is NOT becuase of my failure to present it clearly and accurately. The fault lies in your reading into my language Catholic concepts and/or attempting to make a rebuttal before you even attempt to grasp what I am clearly saying.

However, once again let me attempt to spell it out in no uncertain terms.

Progressive sanctification is the CONFORMATION PROCESSS to the image of Jesus Christ which involves means such as the church, ordinances, prayer, Bible study, obedience to commandments, etc.). These are only instrumental means used by the indwelling Spirit of God. It is the power of the indwelling Spirit that makes the instrumental means effectual and He works according to the purpose of God for your particular life in his scheme of things according to His eternal purpose as stated in Ephesians 2:10 and Philippians 2:13 among other places.

This progressive sanctification is the EFFECT or CONSEQUENCE of an already completed INTERNAL REGNERATED NATURE as it is empowered and made effectual in the life of the beleiver by the power of the Indwelling Spirit of God. It is not regeneration. It is not made effectual by the inward man as the inward man has no power to make it effectual (Jn. 15:5 "without me ye can do nothing" - Rom. 7:18 "to will is present but how to perform that which is good I FIND NOT"). This progressive putting on of the character of the new man by the effectual power of the Holy Spirit with the use of means is determined by the measure of grace and faith given to each believer in keeping with God's overal purpose for that particular life according to HIs eternal purpose in Christ Jesus.

Hence, progressive sanctification is not regeneration and it is not justification as regeneration has to do with a new creation within your human nature (but not of your whole human nature). Neither is it justification as justification has to do with your forensic legal position in connection with Jesus Christ before the law of God. The first obtains the nature of righteousness in your person (while sanctification is PUTTING IT ON in your life) while the lattter removes all legal obstacles to be accepted by God because you are legally accepted "in the beloved" by imputation. The first deals with imparation in regard to your actual person on earth while the latter deals with imputation in regard to your legal position before God in heaven.

Hence, regenerated/justified persons are by nature and by position the children/Sons of God and desire to be like God and that inward desire which originates from the regenerated nature motivates them to want to be Christ like. The pattern of Christ and the principles of righteousness are revealed in the scriptures, expounded on by the church, symbolically revealed in the ordinances and made effectual in a progressive manner by the indwelling Spirit of God who works in cooperation with all the above listed means and never stops working until you are completely freed from the presence and power of indwelling sin.

 

Q

There is not one single word in either posts that says or suggests that regeneration is progressive. I call regeneration the "source" of progressive sanctification but I never define regeneration as progressive sanctification and I have been ever so consistent with that distinction.

Oh no you don't. Glorification occurs instantly in a "twinkling of an eye" but it is not foresenic. The aspect of time has nothing to do with whether or not something is forensic. The term forensic has to do with the LEGAL characterization of something not the TIME characterization of something.

I understand the Catholic view but reject it as Unbiblical. God does not give you abstract faith and then later give you grace to apply it so that it becomes saving or justifing faith.

There is such a difference and one is found in the Perfect tense and passive voice while the other is found in the present tense.

1. I Corinthians 1:2 "them that are sanctified" - Perfect tense completed action.

2. Hebrews 10:10 versus Hebrews 10:14

a. Perfect PASSIVE participle "sanctified through the offering...ONCE FOR ALL.... hath perfected" - vv. 10,14

b. Present PASSIVE participle "being sanctified" - v. 14

The perfect tense speaks of an already completed action by God through means prior to the birth and life of the believer that is "once for all".

The present tense speaks of the progressive sanctification by God (passive voice" through instrumental means (Heb. 10:19-25) wherein the believer is an active pariticipant.

Has your physical body alread been delivered/saved from sin and its presence and power? No! Will it be? Yes.

What is born of Spirit is sprit (Jn. 3:6) and what is born of God cannot sin (1 Jn. 3:9) because His seed remaineth in him (The Holy Spirit and new creature) or the regenerated spirit of man. It is "saved" glorified sinless finished work of God.

This inward New creation that has been "quickened" is to be PUT ON in the mind, affections and actions - Thus your LIFE is being saved as you are REDEEMING THE TIME (Eph. 5:16) or making your life count for the glory of God. This is a daily salvation of the daily life.

It must be "put on" because only according to how a man thinking in his heart so is he. Only as the affections are set on things above so is he. The righteousness found in the new creation or regenerated spirit of man must be put on in the CONSCIENCE SELF - thinking, affections and will which is manifested in what you say and do. This is walking in the Spirit or living under the control of the Spirit.

You are either walking AFTER the flesh or AFTER the spirit at all times. What TIME you are walking after the flesh is LOST forever but what TIME you are walking after the spirit is SAVED forever and that is how you REDEEM THE TIME (Eph. 5:16). What is lost is burned in the day of judgement but what is saved is preserved in REWARDS and POSITION in heaven but the "soul" itself is not lost (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

 

I think we are spreading ourselves over too much territory and should take one aspect at a time or else we will get lost in all the baggage.