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Featured Justification - Rome versus Baptists

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, May 21, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I would repeat the very same words over again without fear of any contradicton of anything I have said or am saying. You simply did not carefully read what I said.


    2 Cor. 3:18 has nothing to do with glorification of THE BODY but with progressive sanctificaiton of the SOUL! Neither is time involved with any definition of the term forensic.

    Read Hebrews 11:1 and you will see faith cannot exist apart from an object of "hope" that is embraced as the "substance" of that hope! Your Catholic definition demands that God first give something called "faith" which has no defined "hope" and thus no "substance" on which that hope can be defined. Your kind of faith, especially in regard to justification simply does not exist. The faith that God gives is inseparable from a defined "hope" which is rooted in real "substance" that gives that "hope" its definition.


    For simplicity let me simply state there is an objective sanctification versus a subjective sanctification. The former has to do with the redemptive purpose of God whereas the latter has to do with your personage. In both cases the term "sanctification" simply means "set apart" unto or by something.


    It is at the resurrection! It is something you have no power, no participation in effecting whatsoever. It is an soveriegn act of God PRIOR TO the judgement seat and therefore your works are not even remotely connected to it.




     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Christians are FULLY justified before God by basis of the Cross of Christ, ONLY thing required by god for that to haoppen is one to receive jesus and that provosion for his sins by faith!

    Once saved, remade anew, THEN we start road to becoming more and more like jesus, by the empowering of the Holy Spirit. Gods desire is that ALL His children be daily growing into image of Christ, but we atill are allowed to chose to obey/disobey...

    Those choices we make affect how close to God will and plans we walk in this life, but at death, we shall immediatly go into presense of God, and long for time when our physical bodies shall be reunited and be glorified, becoming as jesus now is in regards to our spiritual maturity and perfection!
     
  3. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    But you are saying your Justification doesn't lead to sanctification because you are only declared righteous not righteous indeed. Which follows Luther's dung covered in snow analogy which means there is no real internal change no real justification because its only a legal declaration.

    are you really remade anew if you're not living a sanctified life?
    Which basically means that sanctification is optional. There is no real need for sanctification. Admittedly, you said a saved person can chose to disobey ie live like the devil and commit sin whenever, however, and in any condition they want but are secure in their salvation. They can even be unrepentant of it and still be saved. Because of their legal declaration of righteous which isn't a righteousness in fact but only a legal fiction. The worst a saved person has to deal with when they disobey is a guilty feeling and lack of crowns to throw before the feet of Jesus because of the new spirit they are
    given makes them feel bad. I don't know about you but that kind of soteriology tickles my ears. All I have to do is believe that Jesus died for my sins make a declarative statement of belief and I can fornicate, commit adultry, murder, etc... to my hearts content. Feel bad mumble some prayers to God to forgive my behavior and look forward to the afterlife because then I will be glorified just without crowns but hey I'm not in hell. Makes life pretty easy. There is no real requirement to lay down my life in self sacrifice. There is no real requirement to deny myself, pick up my cross, and follow Jesus because I believe and its heart felt.

    So when I go into the presense of God after being saved I might not be as close as someone else but hey there's the rest of eternity to do that. I don't have to give any sin I may enjoy in this life! Cool.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You think like the heretics/false christians who accused paul of teaching "saved by grace of God in order to keep livinglike the devil"

    God Forbid! As we can chooose to do wrong still, but that is NOT who we now are in Christ, and would out usunder bondage jesus died toset us free from!
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I actually don't. I don't believe sanctification is optional but required by Jesus statement "be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect". There is nothing in your soteriological statement that suggest sanctification is commanded but an optional statement. You even state that the book of hebrews asks us to live sanctified lives. Which means we can take it or leave it. The difference about those men and myself is that they werent accusing Paul of anything they were living in sin to which Paul says GOD forbid which is strong language. It isn't a request but a requirement.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The simply reply to Thinkingstuff is that there is no such thing as a justified man who is not also a regenerated man and good works or progressive sanctification stems from regeneration not justification. This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 6-8 when asked if what he taught should lead him to sin (Rom. 6:1) and he said "God forbid." He then went on to illustrate that in water baptism the believer identifies with both the death of Christ to sin and his resurrection life or a life of holiness. There is no such thing as a justified man who is not a regenerated man and progressive sanctification (good works) is derived from the new nature God has created in you by regeneration (Eph. 2:10 "For we are HIS WORKmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works"). It is just that simple.

    However, his position confuses justification with sanctification when sanctification has its roots/source in regeneration.
     
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