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Featured K A T A R G E O : A Word often Mistranslated

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Sep 2, 2014.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The HCSB translates Katargeo using about a dozen words or phrases.

    "By far, the best tool we have for understanding any Bible word is how the Bible uses it - especially in nearest context - not what some supposed impartial authority might insist it means."

    Lets say I am dubious that context actually drove all these differing choices.
     
  2. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I agree. I don't think that context led to that wide gamut of choices either. But I do think it was presuppositions on the part of the translators.

    For instance, take a look at 1 Cor. 15:26, KJV:

    "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

    Using your suggested variation (in the translation forum) we would have:

    " The last enemy that will be rendered ineffective is death."

    I understand that you are not standing by this particular rendition, just that you were making a point. But I believe that such a rendition comes closer than "destroyed".

    And this makes perfect sense from a Preterist perspective. But the KJV translators, commited to a futurist mindset, give the term a concrete sense that I don't think is warranted.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, we agree that an objective and scholarly analysis of each choice did not drive that choice over and against other possible choices.

    The last enemy that will be rendered inactive is death is both transparent and concordant.

    As they say, "if the literal meaning makes sense, seek no other sense."
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The last enemy, death, shall be abolished at His second Coming, correct?
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    A bird flew through the air. The charlatans flew in the night. They flew the U.S. flag.

    Same word, same root, but the usage determines three distinct meanings. To say that a "faithful" translation would be to translate the word the exact same way each time it appears is arbitrary and absurd.

    And so 1 Cor. 15:24, the future tense is demanded by the context:

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    v 24. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

    For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

    Use the past or present tense for the occurrence in v24, and the passage is rendered absurd.
     
  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    This "death" spoken of here, looking at the context, happens at the "end", which is the end of the Old Covenant order, national Israel being judged. (Matt. 21:43 is a good cross-reference; their Kingdom taken from them and given to the "holy nation" (1st Peter), the New Covenant Church

    We tend to take death literally whenever we see it in the Bible, but we should keep in mind how the Bible often uses it - especially the writings of Paul here in Corinthians. Case in point is the death found in my signature quote, 2nd Cor. 3:6.
     
  7. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    KATARGEO and Death

    K A T A R G E O
    and the Covenant of Death​

    This is my second look at this most intriguing Greek word, which is variously (I would say, too variously) translated as "destroyed" "fade away", "done away", "make void", and otherwise. The previous article was introductory, delving closer into a few of the twenty some verses. I had planned to dig deeper in following days.

    Well, I dug deeper - and my shovel broke.

    Translated: There is more here than could be covered in just one article. Instead I would like to just focus on those KATARGEO passages that deal with death and the Old Covenant.

    COVENANT OF SIN, CONDEMNATION, AND DEATH
    Several of these verses either equate or closely connect the previous Covenant with sin and death: In these verses the word or words that translate KATARGEO are underlined and the pertinent descriptions of the earlier Covenant are in bold. Here is 2 Cor. 3:7-14:

    7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
    12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded [lit. hardened]. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament [lit. Old Covenant], because the veil is taken away in Christ.


    Notice that the previous Covenant is characterized by, not only condemnation and death, but also the state of being old. We are so used to referring to the Old Covenant that we forget that term, only first found in the pages of the New Testament, is a negative one. The word for "old" is not the one meaning merely previous or ancient, but implies also obsolescence and wearing out. See Trench's book on New Testament Synonyms for more on this.

    At this point it may seem that this article is moving away from my original intentions to do a word study on KATARGEO. But these other points need first to be established, and then I will return to the uses of the word.

    THE LETHAL OLD COVENANT
    Several other passages also continue this association of the Old Covenant with death or similar terms. The passage just before the one quoted above shows that Old Covenant as not only dead but actively fatal, spiritually lethal for all those who rely on it. 2nd Cor. 3:2-6. Paul tells the Corinthian Christians...

    3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    These characterizations of the Old Covenant stand out:
    Written with black ink,
    chiseled in hard stone,
    on dead tablets.

    All these are contrasted with the excellences of the New Covenant:
    The invisible new life in Christ
    and the work of God's Spirit in our hearts.
    Spiritual guidance from the Spirit of new life in Christ, the Second Adam being a life-giving Spirit.

    This is much better than the killing letter of the Law we could never fulfill. This helps us to thankfully realize the blessedness of Christ's first fulfilling, then abolishing the Law. Matt. 5:17.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Except that paul makes it clear that death, physical death is abolished by God at this time, as Jesus has glorified His saints, have you been glorified yet?
     
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Where do you find this in the Bible?
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You should write a new translation that fits your particular theological bend.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    This passage for the very reason you've expressed above is probably the biggest reason that I'm partial in lieu of full preterist.
     
  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Or we should all just read the Bible for consistent sense and context.

    No need for a new Bible, just a willingness to reread the Bible without old baggage.
     
  13. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Thread on the Preterist 'Fulfilled Covenant' Bible:

     
  14. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You misread or ignore my comments that dealt with this objection of yours.I guess I am not surprised.
    No. The future tense is demanded by your theology.
    It requires a willingness to see something different than what you have been taught. Are you up to that? One thing that is constantly overlooked is the degree to which the Bible is addressed primarily to Jews. Many passages, both promises and threatenings of judgments are misunderstand as being worldwide in scope, when they primarily concern the Jews.

    That is the case here. "Kingdom", "enemies", and "death" - to mention just some terms - take on a special meaning when one considers the context and cross-references. Who, for instance, are the primary enemies of Christ? Those who oppose Him and His followers. And who might they be? According to Revelation 17 it is the Whore of Babylon (1st century Jews), who were "drunk with the blood of the saints".

    Consider also Psalms 2 and Acts 4:23-29. When the early church prayed about their predicament in Acts they cited that Psalm and applied it to the Jewish leaders.

    All of this helps us to understand the application here in 1 Cor. 15.
     
    #34 asterisktom, Sep 8, 2014
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  15. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I thought about mentioning this, but decided against it. The point remains that if one has a reasonably accurate Bible - not study Bible - and a concordance one already can do some really enlightening studies. What helps especially is to note cross-references, especially passages that the NT authors are specifically citing or are alluding to, as Paul does several times in the present chapter.
     
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Would you be surprised to learn that I am an avowed Amillennial?
     
    #36 Aaron, Sep 9, 2014
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  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Often the Spirit speaks of the same event from various points of view. Why four Gospels? The fact of four Gospels—as well as Gen. 1 and 2—seems to defy and "render empty" your notion of consistency. (present tense)

    I might say it this way:​

    The four Gospels have dispelled the notion of consistency that you put forth here. (past)

    Or this way:​

    Read the four Gospels, and your present notion of consistency "will vanish away." (future)

    I wonder what John of Japan might say about your instructions to translators.
     
    #37 Aaron, Sep 9, 2014
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  18. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Not at all. I used to be Amillennial for a number of years myself.

    Was I supposed to be surprised?
     
    #38 asterisktom, Sep 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2014
  19. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Take the chip off your shoulder and ask him.

    But, for what it is worth, it is not instructions to translators I am offering, but caveats to readers.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We will all have these physical bodies raised up and glorified at the second Coming of Jesus, correct?
     
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