Keep commandments?The tree of life?

hi Pauline, get this tape by Jeremiah films... Catholicism Crisis of Faith... all the info u need is inside.

 

DHK, just trying to keep you honest.

First you post: "I have an old catechism..." that omits such and such.

When aked which catechism, page etc., you post: "the testimony of so many Protestants... should be sufficient."

Finally you post: "...the material I remember having..." is just like some website.

Not much credibility there, DHK.

 

DHK,
Did you read what was posted on that link you gave me? I hope you and everyone on this thread will go read it.

It said right there that the list of the Ten Commandments was a shortened version for memorization purposes. And that before memorizing that list, a person should read the complete list in the Scriptures. And it gave the Scripture reference.

Before your post, I was fairly certain already what you were refering to was a shortened summary which is sometimes used to teach children the Commandments. The longer and complete version is used in the classroom to explain the Commandments but those are too long for the children to memorize, so they memorize the shorter version. But they've already heard in class that we aren't to make to ourselves any graven images (that is idols). When I asked for more information on the book you had, I was fairly certain it was geared to young children.

DHK, you are wrong about the Catholic Church ever changing the Ten Commandments or that she omitted any part of them. She has always taught all of the complete Ten Commandments.
The only difference is that she and some Protestant churches use a slightly different arrangement of those Commandments but the Commandments are the same ones.

Pauline

 

ventin,
I can't afford to buy the video. But would like the name of the ex-priest who spoke on it and any other information it gives about him. How long he was a priest, what order or diocese he served in, etc. I can't check it out unless I have some concrete details.

Who else is featured among the speakers on the video? Names, locations, addresses, e-mail addresses, etc., would help greatly.

I would like to know more about the people who put out the video. Are they associated with a particular denomination? Is there an address where I can write them?

In view of your and DHK's not posting solid evidence for these assertions against the Catholic Church, I'd suggest you not repeat those assertions to anyone else as being factual unless and until you can prove them. They certainly haven't been proven so far. And, I am sure you only want to pass on what is true. Right?
Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:
DHK, just trying to keep you honest.

First you post: "I have an old catechism..." that omits such and such.
---It did omit "such and such." It just wasn't a catechism. It was materials printed by the Knights of Columbus. Forgive me if my memory fails me after 30 years, and I seem to forget publishers' names and dates of publications.
When aked which catechism, page etc., you post: "the testimony of so many Protestants... should be sufficient."
---This you ought to be honest about yourself. I could post website after website that says basically the same thing. Do you think they are all lying. The first link that I previously provided gave a documented Catholic source. As anti-Catholic as the link may be, it still gave a source where the Commandments are given "wrongly," omitting one, and adding another.
Finally you post: "...the material I remember having..." is just like some website.
---And it is.
Not much credibility there, DHK.
---Whose credibility is at stake? Your Knights of Columbus post the Ten Commandments, omitting one, and adding another. We don't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
DHK,
Did you read what was posted on that link you gave me? I hope you and everyone on this thread will go read it.

It said right there that the list of the Ten Commandments was a shortened version for memorization purposes. And that before memorizing that list, a person should read the complete list in the Scriptures. And it gave the Scripture reference.

DHK, you are wrong about the Catholic Church ever changing the Ten Commandments or that she omitted any part of them. She has always taught all of the complete Ten Commandments.
The only difference is that she and some Protestant churches use a slightly different arrangement of those Commandments but the Commandments are the same ones.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are very good at double speak. Protestants and Baptists post the Ten Commandments publicly, and for memorization, but they are obviously different then the ones that you post or publish. There is an obvious reason for that. You refer to your catechism for further explanation. We also refer to commentaries, and other sources for further explanations. Not much difference there.
The thing to take note of is what is published in public for all to read. You know the answer to that Pauline. What the public reads is what I posted from the Knights of Columbus. That's what the public is familiar with as far as the "Catholic Ten Commandments" are concerned. They aren't the same and you know it very well. "See small footnotes for details" isn't good enough. "See catechism for details" isn't good enough. Be honest.
DHK

 

DHK,
Telling you the truthful facts isn't double-speak. And, I think you know I'm giving you the truthful facts.

We didn't even teach the children, in the Protestant Children's Church that we ran, to memorize the Ten Commandments. Nor the teens in the youth group we directed. Protestants generally don't memorize them. That's a fact. Sad to say, I still haven't memorized them.

But Catholic children are taught them fairly early. They aren't up to memorizing the full length version. But once they've learned what the full length Commandments says and means, then just one shorter line in their memories will remind them of the full meaning.

And, you know this is a fairly common method of teaching and remembering something. I use it any time I'm giving a talk.

Pauline

 

DHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Since when did the Catholic Church revise their Catechism, Disciple? Perhaps you could do some research for us. I have an old catechism with the first commandment where the phrase "you shall not make for yourself any graven image," is omitted. Can't find it anywhere mentioned. In fact in most Catholic copies of the Ten Commandments that particular command is ommitted--perhaps deliberately?? Why would it suddenly show up here? Perhaps for ecumenical purposes? Got any good explanations? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK: You accuse the Catholic Church of changing the Catechism, and you say you have a Catechism that does not even mention “you shall not make for yourself any graven image.” A Catechism teaches, it explains. You seem to be unable to come up with this Catechism that doesn’t teach this. As I posted before the standard Catechism for instruction for children was the BALTIMORE CATECHISM. This is also the Catechism that was used throughout the United States for over a hundred years. This is what I had to memorize as a child.

Baltimore Catechism
313. Q. Which are the Commandments of God?
A. The Commandments of God are these ten.

1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before Me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honor thy father and thy mother.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

Another book that was used in conjunction with the Baltimore Catechism for the teaching of the Catholic faith to children was Bible History by Ignatius Schuster, DD Tan Books 1959 They have the same list on page 76 and 77 as what is in the Baltimore Catechism. This is the standard shortened version.

Interestingly here is a Jewish version of the Ten Commandments: http://judaism.about.com/library/holidays/shavuot/bl_shavuot_torah.htm

Ten Commandments
On Mount Sinai, the Jewish People received the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments range from the belief in one God to basic laws which every society needs to enforce.

1. I am the Lord your God who took you out of the land of Egypt.
2. You shall have no other gods before Me.
3. Do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not bear false witness.
10. Do not covet.

Anyway, as I asked you before how do you know that the numbering system you are using is correct or better than the numbering the Catholics use? As Falwell showed on his site, there really is no difference in the Protestant and Catholic Ten Commandments. And as Pauline stated, at least the Catholics teach our kids to memorize and obey them. By the way, both the Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of the Catholic Church explain each commandment one by one.


God Bless

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Disciple 2001:

Anyway, as I asked you before how do you know that the numbering system you are using is correct or better than the numbering the Catholics use? As Falwell showed on his site, there really is no difference in the Protestant and Catholic Ten Commandments. And as Pauline stated, at least the Catholics teach our kids to memorize and obey them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do I know which numbering system is correct? I do know that "Thou shalt not covet," is one commandment and not two. Falwell's intentions are good, he, like the Catholic Church, has become more ecumenical in recent years. I'm sorry that Pauline had a bad experience in Protestant churches that did not teach her the Ten Commandments. She obviously did not find peace with God there either. She got mixed up with the wrong churches. Children in our Sunday Schools learn the Ten Commandments as well as the days of Creation, and many other things from the Bible. Basically that is all that we study--the Bible. The most important thing in all of that is to make sure that you are saved, and trusting in Christ.

As far as your catechism is concerned I'll repeat what I have already said. We alredy know what the Catechism publishes on the Web, and in its official publications. That is not the problem. The problem is the printing of Catholic material for public consumption. If you're honest you will admit that most Catholic publications, aside from detailed Catechisms, etc. omit what most consider the second commandment: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image," and split the tenth commandment into two--the ninth and tenth. The reason is obvious.
DHK

 

DHK: You say,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> How do I know which numbering system is correct? I do know that "Thou shalt not covet," is one commandment and not two. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Scripture separates the desire for thy neighbor’s wife, from coveting thy neighbor’s ox, or ass, and anything that is your neighbor’s. Two separate commands here. Two "neither shalt"s here. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's. Deuteronomy 5:21 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Catholics see the difference. Like I say how do you know your numbering system is correct? Why is yours better than mine? Mine can be supported by Holy Scripture just as yours can, because they are both valid. All Ten Commandments are there.

You told me you had in your possession a Catechism that left out those words about the graven images and refuted the Catechism that I had. You even accused the Baltimore Catechism I presented as evidence of having been "changed", because it didn’t agree with the Catechism you had.

It is obvious you will never admit what you are doing, so I will forgive you, but ask that in the future, you don’t claim to have “evidence” that you don’t really have.

God Bless

[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]

 

Disciple and DHK,
The two different arrangements of the Ten Commandments go way back in history. I have read how and when there came to be two arrangements. I think Sir Ed or Godmetal noted that the Lutherans use the same arrangement as the Catholics. And, I think, one or two other Protestant denominations do too. So that arrangement is not unique to use by the Catholic Church.

DHK,
There is absolutely nothing evil about the way the Ten Commandments are shortened for memorization purposes. It's a very effective teaching tool.

I'd be very interested in knowing how many of the non-Catholic Christians on this thread have memorized the Ten Commandments? And, if so, did you do so as a child? Of what age, and did you memorize the full and complete list from Scripture?

The Protestant churches we were in didn't believe Christians are called to live the Ten Commandments. So there was no purpose in memorizing them. And, it seemed to me that Baptists in my town, that I've talked with, don't believe Christians are called to live those Commandments either. So again, why memorize them? Do most Baptists teach that Christians are called to live the Ten Commandments or not?

Pauline

 

DHK: You seem focused on the graven images thing.

1. Thou shalt have no
other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make
unto thee any graven image.

Protestants separate Catholic commandment number 1 into two commandments. My question is, how do they keep this commandment of not making any graven image? How about a picture of their wife or husband or kids in their wallets? How about a nativity scene? How about a picture of a waterfall in their living room? Or even the coins in their pockets with graven images on them?

It seems to me, commandment number one, of having no other gods before me, includes commandment number two. It comes down to we are not to worship false gods.

Pauline has some good questions. I have been told here many times the Ten Commandments are for Israel, not Christians. I had a thread on the Ten Commandments a couple of months ago. This seems inconsistent with Christians teaching their children to memorize them. Once they do memorize them, how is commandment number two explained in how to obey it? You guys do explain it, I hope? Is it explained that Scripture is speaking to us about it in relation to commandment number one, that we are to worship God alone? Or is it the literal no making of graven images?

God Bless

[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
ventin,
I can't afford to buy the video. But would like the name of the ex-priest who spoke on it and any other information it gives about him. How long he was a priest, what order or diocese he served in, etc. I can't check it out unless I have some concrete details.

Who else is featured among the speakers on the video? Names, locations, addresses, e-mail addresses, etc., would help greatly.

I would like to know more about the people who put out the video. Are they associated with a particular denomination? Is there an address where I can write them?

In view of your and DHK's not posting solid evidence for these assertions against the Catholic Church, I'd suggest you not repeat those assertions to anyone else as being factual unless and until you can prove them. They certainly haven't been proven so far. And, I am sure you only want to pass on what is true. Right?
Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is a summary of the video.

Catholicism Crisis of Faith by Jeremiah Films

The ppl who testified:

Bob Bush Jesuit Priest
Frank Eberhardt Former Seminarian
Bart Brewer Former Carmelite Priest
Victor Affonso Former Jesuit Priest of 21 years
Wilma Sallivan Former sister of Mercy
Mary Kraus Former Franciscan Sister
Doreen D’Antonio Former Sister of Charity

There are current Catholics who are interviewed as well.

Questions raised:

The Eucharist – The Priest actually has authority to summon Jesus to be transubstituted to be bread and wine?
Can Catholics use artificial means of birth control?
Why continue the sacrifice? Why focus on the continuing, why not leave it finished? Heb 10:18, 1Tim 2:5
Statutes – Catholics have different Saints to pray to for different needs and they come in the form of statutes. A direct opposite of 2nd commandment of 10 commandments.
Mary – immaculate conception. Does the Catholic understand what it means?
- appearance at Fatama to glorify herself?
- the mediator of all grace? 1Tim 2:5
Catholic Salvation – mortal sins à eternal damnation.
- Priest can forgive sins by reciting a formula.
- Purgatory? Preached but do Catholics believe? à Was Christ able to pay for the ransom of sin?
1/24 Catholics knows the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
Can Grace be earned?
Can Catholics know for sure that they can get to heaven?

For transcript and additional info:
Lumen Production
Box 595
Cupertino CA 95015 USA

 

ventin,
Thanks for all your work. The information you posted was a great help. Lumen Production is an anti-Catholic organization headed up by James McCarthy. The video: Catholicism: Crisis of Faith, is not a good resource for you to be using in the study of what Catholics really believe. Not if you care about knowing the truth. That was apparent to me as soon as I saw Bart Brewer's name on the list of speakers on the video. So I did a little research. Here's part of what I found.

For one thing, in McCarthy's interview of Father Richard Chilson dishonest tactics were used to make Fr. Chilson appear to say things he hadn't said. And McCarthy did not give the true picture of what Fr. Chilson did say, notably on the topics of salvation and the Eucharist.

Is the part still in the video that is supposed to show a statue of Mary crucified at a church in Quinto, Mexico? McCarthy made some real blunders there. The statue isn't at the church, but in a monastery. It isn't Mary, it's a young martyr who was murdered by her own father when she wouldn't marry a non-Christian man.

Tell me why some non-Catholic Christians will falsify evidence in order to convict Catholics of crimes against religion. Do you think McCarthy and Bart Brewer and the others were chuckling over how they got the best of those Catholics? I think it's ugly that Christians have to lie and manipulate the truth about other Christians.

See www.Catholic.com for more information on the video, James McCarthy, and Bart Brewer.

Better to take each of the subjects you listed from the video as "questions raised" and get Catholics on this board to answer them. That way you'll get the truth. And I think that's what you've already set out to do in the topics you've been posting on this board.

Pauline

 

Gaps,
I'm sorry, but I didn't get the point of your post. By posting the 666, are you indicating that the pope is supposed to be the one who has that number, as has been said by others?

Do you realize that there is no title of the pope that adds up to 666? In order to accuse the pope of having the number 666, the writers had to make up a title for the pope that he has never held. How's that for honesty?
Pauline

 

Pauline, i just hope that the questions i posed are legitimate.
when i see what u really believe as a Catholic, then we can start discussing about biblical christianity.

Although u mentioned that Lumen productions is anti-catholic, but so far, i dont see any deviations from catholic teachings. so i believe they still give at least me a objective of Catholicism in respect to scriptures.

God bless!