Kent Hovind Blog

What of the patriots of 1776? Would you rebuke them as equally as you have, brother Hovind? Do you recognize Independence Day or is that a commemoration of sinful people not rendering unto Caesar?

 

hovind was dishonest in his methods, and he dragged others unwillingly into the mix.

 

That is an entirely different debate - this debate is on Kent Hovind.

That was a whole different set of circumstances, much more complex than a man refusing to pay taxes imposed by a government which was freely elected to represent its people. Ah, can't rabbit trail this thread, but the differences are for to long to list here.

It is the old red herring again - I can't really Biblically defend brother Hovind so I'll change the topic and while I'm at it I'll throw an "ad hominim" and question the patriotism of anyone who is critical of him. And while we are at it lets throw in a straw man and discuss the rights and wrongs of the American Revolution.

The man broke the law - he has that privilege in the eyes of God, but like so many before him in the word of God and in history, he must be willing to suffer the consequences.

 

It is not a red herring. If Hovind was misguided, it was because he believed that freedom of religion was a right bestowed upon him as a result of him being a citizen of the United States of America and being under the protection of the law of that land known as the Constitution. If freedom of religion was something that applied to folks in 1786, because of people that fought for independance in 1776, then it seems odd that it doesn't apply to someone in 2007. He is a minister of God, who was running a Christian ministry and believed that he had the freedom to run that ministry without the government forcing him to be a tax collector for taxes that did not apply to him nor the servants who served in that ministry. The way the brethren disparage him for "rebelling" against Caesar for not giving unto Caesar is directly equivalent to the Patriots that didn't give unto an actual King in King George and fought a war to be free of his influence. Your positions are inconsistent if you defend one and criticize the other.

 

Some interesting diatribes from my previous post. I was not trying to throw off the discussion onto another topic, but making the point that some breaking the law for what they believed in created this country. They too had to be willing to suffer the consequences if the Revolution had turned out differently, surely all the Declaration of Idependence signers would have been hanged for treason. I would think before not paying the taxes he should have done a cost vs. benifit analysis, just as I am sure the signers of the D of I did and made a conscience decision to move forward. I am not all saying he should not pay the consequence of his actions. The question here seems to be is it his beliefs are what is actually behind his reasoning and not greed.

 

I am not entirely sure. There are parts of it that I am very uncomfortable with. But I recognize and rejoice in the sovereignty of God. We are all sinful people. While America has been the greatest mission sending nation in history, it is also now beset with a very weak, anemic church.

He does have freedom of religion. This was not about religion. His freedom of religion was in now way compromised by this. He proved it at his trial when he said that there were people willing to pay the money. It was pure pragmatics.

That's not a "freedom of religion" issue. Under the constitution interpreted by the government, he had the responsibility to withhold taxes and he didn't do it. In so doing, he sinned, and has brougth great reproach on the name of Christ (1 Peter 2:13-15). He was not being asked to disobey God, and therefore had no biblical right to disobey the government

No, not really. But not the issue anyway. The issue is not "What did people do in the past?" The issue is, "What has God commanded?" On this issue, Hovind was simply wrong.

 

You are mistaken Rufus - totally different situations. I am not going to go into a history lesson here, but there is no similarity.

 

Rufus, be careful arguing with state worshipers like this.
I don't know about all the details of the Hovind case but I do know that many on this board said the same things about Roy Moore and thus they are state worshiping idolators.

Anyone who claims that you must follow EVERY man made law is guilty of idolatry!

Ok, you can boot me off the board now for calling people guilty of the first commandment.

 

Those who think it is important to obey the law are state worshiping idolaters - now there's a claim and a half.

I guess Jesus and Paul would fit in that category as well?

Sorry - I have to laugh - the very notion that I would be classified as a state worshiping idolater is so far fetched that it goes beyond being considered an insult.

Besides, who here said one must obey EVERY law of the state, but paying taxes does not violate scripture - in fact - it agrees with scripture.

 

State worshippers? Who here worships the state? I can't speak for others, since I don't read all of them, but my comments have been solely directed by biblical commands, none of which has been refuted by your side.

So let me see if I understand: Those who believe we should obey God's commands in Rom 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13ff are state worshippers.

Is that about right?

No one here has claimed that, so far as I can see.

There are better reasons to boot your off the board, namely, making poor arguments. But unfortunately, that's not a deal-breaker here.

 

Nice ad hominems there.

Here we go again:

Hovind:

• Has disregarded Christ's command to "render unto Caesar." (direct disobedience to scriptural command)
• Hovind has stated, "I don't know why I'm being charged." (Lie)
• Hovind claims that he is employed by God, receives no income, has no expenses and owns no property. (Lie) He still offers $250K to anyone who can prove evolution. If he has nothing, where does the $250K come from?
• Hovind failed to pay $473,818 in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes on employees. (Defrauding others)
• Hovind paid his employees in cash and labeled them "missionaries" to avoid payroll tax and FICA requirements. (Defrauding others; disobeyed scriptural command)
• Hovind failed to obtain a building permit during the 2002 theme park construction.
• Hovind has been charged with: Filing a frivolous lawsuit against the IRS, Filing a (false) injunction against an IRS special agent, Filing false complaints against the IRS for false arrest, excessive use of force and theft, and making threats against investigators and those cooperating with the investigation. (those are allegations, not convictions, in the sake of intellectual honesty...but none of these charges have been dismissed out of hand)
• Hovind and his wife made scores of cash deposits to make the money untraceable. (bearing false witness; let "yes" be "yes")
• Hovind required his employees to sign nondisclosure agreements if they wanted to keep their jobs. (forced the complicity of others with his felony)
• Hovind claims that his employer is God--to circumvent taxes. (Lie)
• None of Hovind's businesses have a license. (see above)
• Hovind claims he was "never notified" by the IRS...despite the numerous documented letters sent to him (reportedly unopened) by IRS officials. (Lie)

Sources:

• http://www.answers.com/topic/kent-hovind
• http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/...610190338/1006
• http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/...611020330/1006
• http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/...701190332/1006

Now, does my pointing this out make me a "state worshipper?" Hardly.

 

What do you render unto a 600 pound gorilla? Whatever it wants!

Really all you have pointed out is that there is a disagreement between Hovind and the IRS, and that you agree with the IRS instead of Hovind.

 

Incorrect - I agree with the Jesus when He said to render to Caesar and with Paul when he said tribute to whom tribute is due.

It not a matter of agreement - but doing what is scripturally right.

 

"And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's." - Luke 20:25​

The freewill offerings of people to support God's ministry are not Caesar's. The love gifts of that ministry to the servants of the ministry are also not Caesar's. They belong to God.

In what context and where? (Your wikipedia and three dead links don't provide this information)

He is a full time minister of God. I could offer $500k and not have it because I'm a Christian and am fully confident that evolution can not be proved. Where is your faith brother?

According to the IRS.

That's what they were. Does one have to fly to Borneo to be considered a missionary in a Christian ministry?

You want him to go to the state to ask for permission to build God's ministry?

Have you investigated these issues? The threat against investigators was a prayer Hovind said on the radio asking to be delivered from evil.

Every count was for cash withdrawals not deposits (where do you get this stuff?) Every withdrawal was for less than $10,000 on any given day and met the legal requirement for not reporting. He withdrew his money from his accounts under the reporting limit and did not knowingly violate any reporting requirement.

If this is true, it is not alleged in the indictment and thus was not convicted of this offense.

Is not a full-time minister's employer Jesus Christ? Are there pastors on this board that will say their employer is someone other than Christ? Are not there churches on this board that are exempt or excluded from taxation?

Again, you're saying you need the state's permission to do the Lord's work?

Not sure about this one but if it is as believable as the other stuff you're alleging, I would doubt it's accuracy.

The first source is Wikipedia and the later ones are all broken links. I remember reading the Pensacolanewsjournal and of course, their articles were more worldly bias against a Christian. It sure would be special if Christians would start giving their brethren the benefit of the doubt rather than believing the media and the state.

 

Not to point out the obvious, but the taxes are not charged on money given to God. The taxes are withheld from salaries given to people. When the church or religious organization receives money for ministry, they do not pay taxes on it. When they pay salaries to people, the church still does not pay. The money is paid by the individual. It is withheld by the employer and sent in on behalf of hte individual.

Face it, Hovind was wrong. Plain and simple. There is no justification for what he did.

 

Rufus, it wouldn't matter if I had a signed affidavit by Hovind himself admitting to everything. You are convinced, and always will be, that he has done absolutely nothing wrong. I will contend that he did not "render unto Caesar" as Christ commanded. We are at an impasse. Two options:

• Agree to disagree.
• Rock, Paper, Scissors. Best 2 out of 3.

I chose the second one...and since you weren't here, I took the liberty of choosing for you. You lost, by the way.

:wavey:

 

So then you also agree with the IRS that a ministry of God must render taxes unto Caeser. That is all this is about. Whether the IRS has jurisdiction over God. Or whether the IRS has the authority to decide what is and is not a legitimate religious organization.

 

Does your employer withhold taxes from your salary for the IRS?

 

Rbell,

I am convinced because

• I've done the research
• I accept the testimony of Christians over the testimony of the PensacolaJournal
• I am aware of the fruits of Hovind's ministry
• I am aware of the fruits of the IRS and our wicked "justice" system

This is not an agree to disagree situation. You are calling a brother in Christ who is fully dedicated to the ministry of Christ, and has served months in jail and has been sentenced to ten years in jail, a liar. You have joined the world in the persecution of this man and you do not have substantive data to back up your allegations. Be sure that you are fully confident of what you are doing in this thread as there is, perhaps, more at stake than you may be conscious of.

"And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" - Acts 9:4​

 

Sorry, Charlie.

I know someone personally who has been harmed by Hovind's actions.

I take their word, as a close friend, over yours AND the papers'.