Kent Hovind Blog

Yes.

No, that's not what this is about. The IRS does not have jurisdiction over God. They cannot command us to disobey God. They have not done so. Requiring the withholding of taxes is not a matter of obedience to God. Even paying taxes is not a matter of obedience ot God. The IRS's evaluation of what is or is not a legitimate religious organization is irrelevant. It makes no difference.

 

If the IRS can decide that a pastor is an employee (look up the word hireling) and that the pastor is beholden to the state to pay taxes, then apparently they do have jurisdiction over God. How does the IRS decide this without violating the 1st amendment?

 

It would be nice if you would cease telling me what I agree with and don't agree with.

The 17th Amendment gave the federal government the right to tax income - simple enough. It was legally passed by established constitutional procedure. That is the law and it is not a law which violates the word of God.

 

If the IRS classifies the staff as employees then one is operating a business and subject to withholding from the employee 6.2% for Social Security and 1.45% for Medicare and paying from the business the same matching amount. This is the heart of counts 1-12. The government claims Dinosaur Adventure Land was a business, Hovind claims it was a ministry of God. As a business, the IRS claimed that Kent Hovind was responsible for being a tax collector and a tax payer on the wages of his "employees". As a Christian ministry, Hovind claims that the people laboring at the park were doing so as a ministry and were not subject to these requirements.

 

You apparently don't understand employee classifications. For some purposes, the pastor is self-employed, and for others he is employed by the church. None of that has anything to do with the biblical use of the word "hireling," and any other use is irrelevant.

The pastor always has to pay taxes, whether they are withheld and he pays quarterly estimated tax, or not. The pastor is not exempt from taxes. The church is.

No, they don't.

What does this have to do with the first amendment? The IRS is not telling a pastor what he can or cannot say.

 

Yes.

Under the law, Hovind was wrong. This is not even disputable. It may be disputable whether Dinosaur Land itself was taxable. I don't know what the status is of that. It is not disputable that he was required to withhold taxes from employees, and his failure to do so was wrong.

He failed to obey God. He brought reproach on the gospel of Christ.

 

So you're changing your position from this...

In one sentence you are saying that it not disputable and in the next you are saying it is disputable? If you don't know the status of whether or not Dinosaur Adventure Land is taxable, then you are either on Hovind's side or you are unaware of what you speak for this is what 1-12 is about.

 

As a very young Christian, I met Dr. Dino. I was very impressed with him, and his enthusiasm. He made it clear to me that he didn't have every answer, but I could have faith in the biblical creation account. I will always be glad I saw him.


I guess it is important to pay your taxes, or be more convinving in your argument.

 

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Notice that the altar does not pay the priests a salary. If the priests are taxed, the altar is taxed. If the preacher is taxed, the gospel is taxed.

 

No, I didn't change at all. When a employer withholds taxes, they are withholding taxes the employee owes. That's why there is a net and gross income on your check stub.
The employer is not paying taxes on the business. He is withholding money that the employee owes for personal taxes.

No, you seem not to be paying attention here. Let me see if I can clarify.

There are two issues in taxation: 1) personal income tax and 2) business income tax.

A church/ministry does not pay the former or the latter. They are "tax exempt." However, as an employer, they withhold personal income tax. That is money that would otherwise come to the employee that the employer would then pay.

It is setup for automatic withholding and payment. In withholding, the business is not paying the tax. They are, in effect, withholding the personal income tax.

 

Boy, that's creative exegesis. You need to explain where you got that from.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe that pastors should be exempt from paying personal income tax?

 

I believe everyone should be exempt from paying a personal income tax. Thats another issue. But I do not believe a pastor of a church is an employee. Now, if your 'church' is a 501 c 3 corporation and you are an employee of said corporation, then I suppose you must obey the laws that your organization is incorporated under. But I do not believe that a new testament church is a legal entity that derives its existence from the authority of the state. If a new testament church gives financial support to the minister of the gospel, what business is that of the government?

 

Philosophically, I do as well. I would prefer a VAT or some such. But as you say, Thats another issue.

Again, it depends on the situation. For some things, the pastor is an employee, and for others he is not. When he works (preaches, get paid for the gospel), he is an employee if he gets paid.

Incorporation is different than 501c3. But if the pastor is paid by the church, then he owes income tax on that money.

It is, in our times, a legal entity, but does not derive existence from teh authority of the state.

It is the same as if the ACME Widget Company give financial support to the widget maker. The line of work is different. But legally, the issue is not.

This is a pretty clear cut issue, it seems to me. Paying personal income tax is violating no law of God, and hence I am required to pay it. A church withholding personal income tax is violating no law of God, and hence, if asked to do so they are required to do it.

Let's face it: A church paying tax is not violating a law of God so far as I can tell.

 

That is man's view. A pastor is not an employee, but a person called by God to oversee the church. If he is an employee, he is an employee of God, like Hovind said.

Even if the money is not payment for labour? What if it is given as a gift from the members?

Does the church need articles of incorporation that look like this?

http://www.crcna.org/pages/model_articles_usa.cfm

or something like this?

http://www.parkavenue.org/documents/Articles of Incorporation_b.pdf

From whence do these 'churches' derive their existence?

No, the difference is one is a church, and one is not. The first amendment would apply to the church, not the ACME Widget Company. A church paying tax is violating the constitution. A non-profit organization, however, is subject to the laws it incorporated under. But that is not a church.

 

A pastor is called by God to oversee the church. But in our country, for income tax purposes he is an employee of hte church in some cases.

I believe that "gifts" given that would not be otherwise given were it not for his position are taxable. For instance, if someone gives me a gift of $100, that they would not give me if I weren't the pastor, it is taxable. I can't remember the exact laws on this.

I don't know what they have to look like. Incorporation is a legal issue that protects the church and the officers. The incorporate under the laws of the state in which they reside.

A church derives its existence from Christ. That is a different issue. Incorporation is a legal matter, not a spiritual one. I think you are confusing some things here.

I don't know what to say here James. You are simply wrong. The first amendment applies to religious establishments and free speech. It does not apply to personal income tax. A church doesn't pay tax. When a church withholds taxes, they are not paying it. Think about the very term "withholding." That means they are taking something out of the employee's check that would otherwise be there. The church as an employer is not paying taxes as a church. They are withholding taxes that the employee owes as federal personal income tax.

Furthermore, a church paying taxes is not a constitutional issue nor a biblical one. Tax exemption is a privilege granted by the government. It is not a biblical right or nor a constitutional one so far as I can tell.

I think you are very confused here. At the core of it seem to be a confusion about the nature of the church. The church is God's institution, ordained by God under the authority of God. Legal incorporation does not compromise that at all.

 

Very true.
But Churches are non taxable by right.
If you trade your non taxable right in for a privilege of exemption, it is no longer a God given unalienable right but a gift of the state.

Actually is does because it gives another allegiance.
It is both unBiblical and unconstitutional.
If private people get tax breaks for giving to the church, they are receiving benefits from the state for supporting a church.
The IRS is then giving a benefit to the church. It would appear that this is ok since they seem to give this benefit to all. Meaning that the IRS does not single out one type of church to give this benefit out to but they can revoke the status of any church that doesn't go with the program so to speak.

It has worked beautifully actually.
All church denominations from Baptist to Catholic are now bought and paid for by their own members tax deductions.

 

The employer withholds the amount the employee owes and the employer pays a matching amount for FICA and Medicare.

A church/ministry that the IRS classifies as a business is required to withhold and match for social security and medicare. This is 1-12 in the Hovind case.

 

Where in the Bible do you see a God-given right to tax exemption by churches? I have never seen this right.

I can testify without doubt that incorporation does not given another allegiance. We are incorporated, but our allegiance is to Scripture and God. Perhaps some pastors or churches are so weak that they have another allegiance, but that has nothing to do with incorporation. That has to do with a lack of spiritual commitment.

I am not aware of any biblical teaching on incorporation, or any consitutional prohibition for that matter. Perhaps you can enlighten us.

They do get tax breaks.

Yes.

That is simply untrue, and an unfair charge. If your church has compromised in this area, then you should leave it. But there are a great many churches that have not compromised. You should not attack these faithful churches.

 

Yes, the matching part is on behalf of the employer. It is money that would be given to teh employee if the company did not pay it.

yes, you are correct. And Hovind disobeyed God by disobeying the government in this non-biblical matter.

 

I suppose that's one way to look at it.