1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

L=Limited Atonement

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by annie, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    In the OT - evangelism was to be world wide and those who were to worship at the temple included both Jew and Gentile.

    Even in the NT - the synagogues had both Jews and Gentiles worshipping together - in a non-Christian service.

    So - no change there.

    The Lev 16 service is performed at the end of the ceremonial year - all individual animal sacrifices have already been brought in during the course of the year. The Atonement - is completed for those who are part of that service.

    The Atoning Sacrifice is simply a link to the daily sacrifice and the Passover sacrifice - slain for the world.

    Even according to today's orthodox Jews - the day of Atonement service has as its scope "the whole world".

    However - the distinction is that the Atoning Sacrifice is for the World - but the completed process of atonement - is only made for the saints, since only they have entered into the service in confession and repentance and have claimed the blood of the substitutionary sacrifice.

    Calvinism says "limited atonement" but really means "limited Atoning Sacrifice" NOT just limited atonement.

    That part of Calvinism that believes in what they mistakenly call limited atonement - do not believe that Christ died for (and paid the price for) ALL sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

    In other words they deny 1John 2:2 atoning Sacrifice is for the WHOLE WORLD even BEFORE we get to the completed Lev 16 concept of the Atonement "process" that starts with the Atoning Sacrifice (and does not END there).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Greek scholar Dr. A.T. Robertson says of John 1:29:

    'Which taketh away the sin of the world (ho airon ten hamartian tou kosmou). Note singular hamartian not plural hamartias (I John 3:5) where same verb airon, to bear away, is used. The future work of the Lamb of God here described in present tense as in I John 1:7 about the blood of Christ. He is the Lamb of God for the world, not just for Jews.' {end quote}

    When Jesus carried our sins and the transgressions of all sinners away at the Cross, He assured all persons, signing it in His own blood, that there is no hindrance in knowing Almighty God. [I John 2:2] The only condition for the appropriation of salvation is to believe. [Acts 16:31] 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, and your house.' Without this faith in His work there is no hope. [John 3:18 b, c]

    Who is more important in John 1:7; is it Jesus Who is resplendent Light, the witness of John the Baptist or sinners? All things are for the glory of God so the Light is the most important Being. The Baptist was the witness and bearer of the truth about Almighty God while sinners were to become the benefactors of Christ's brilliant and eternal light and life. He is the true Light. [John 1:9a] He holds the only possibility of eternal life in the Presence of God. [I John 5:11-13]

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is a clue and evidence for the Calvinist. God speaking through the Apostle John makes things as plain as day. 'The same came for a witness, (John the Baptist) to bear witness of the Light, that ALL MEN {human sinners}through Him {Jesus}might be saved.' You will be able to understand His truth without four years of Greek and excellence in English grammar. And in the words of Bill Engvall, the blue collar comedian, 'Here's your sign!!'
     
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    I love it, how so very easy to carry, and pass out "your sign", but so unbearable to see the word contained on the sign, in print in this BBS.

    Thanks for the laughter Ray, I'm still tryin' to pick myself up off the floor where I'be been rolling and laughing.
     
  5. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Grammatical semantics"--

    What meaneth the scripture: "Depart from me ye that work inquity, I never knew you."

    These were those who had cast out devils and done many great things in Jesus' Name.

    Did Jesus die for them? What happened?

    Was there something inadequate with Jesus' sacrifice?

    Jesus' blood + "our" faith=salvation by works. See Eph. 2:8-10.

    "No one comes to the Father unless The Spirit draws him."

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother James,

    If you were to load a double barrel shotgun and put a slug in both chambers and turn it toward your face and pull the trigger on the left side, you would be more than lucky if the slug grazed your head. A lot of people would get the idea and not make the same mistake twice by pulling the trigger on the right chamber, pointing the gun in the same direction. This is an example of what Calvinists do with the Bible. In order to make sense of God's Word you have to look at the truth, if you will, by looking down the barrel from a new direction. The Bible will speak for itself by using the passages as they were spoken by His Apostolate.

    The gun was crafted in such a way that if you put the stock to your shoulder the gun works perfectly. Arminianism best fits this model though not always hitting the bull's eye; but it is better than having your gun jammed most of the time.

    Brother James, this is what Jesus will say to all those who have not truly believed, loved and followed Jesus. But Jesus will say the opposite to we who love Him. 'My sheep hear My voice, and I KNOW THEM, and they follow Me; and I give unto them eternal life. [John 10:27-28a]

    In verse 23 Jesus tells us, up front and personal, that these people-even preachers, were not true believers, because Christ will say to them, 'I never knew you.' There's the evidence.

     
  7. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A limited few--

    The number of names written in the Lamb's Book of Life is known only to God. That number probably has many powers of 10--probably more than a few. They are God's, saved by Him, called by Him and preserved by Him.

    The only limit is God's good pleasure--He is the Potter.

    A scatter-gun works best with both eyes open.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  8. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you know what it is that gets one's name written in the book of life?

    Let us deal with two persons, both lacking faith in God, and neither, whose name is written in the Lamb's book of life. God knew from the foundation of the world that one of the two would come to faith in His son. Even so, this one that will come to faith is not written in the Lamb's book of life because that book is for the children of Israel, God's chosen race, and these two in this illustration are gentiles. Notwithstanding, God knew that one of them would believe in His Son. In truth, God knew that all the Gentiles who believe in His son would get their name written in the Lamb's book of Life, but he did not write their names there yet, because they were not Jews.

    One of the two now comes to faith in Jesus, and his/her name is written in the book, because he/she has become "a friend of God". The other is not written because the other lacks faith in God and remains an enemy to God.

    Does the one "getting name written in the book" mean that one is "an elect of God"? Or does it mean that one by believing has become friendly toward God, and is therefore given everlasting life by God?

    Calvin says that since God foreknew that one of the two would believe, that God "elected" that one unto himself before the foundation of the world.

    Arminius says that "through the provision of God, one became a believer, and as such, receives the Gift of Everlasting life promised to all who believe in Jesus. Now by provision of God, I am saying that God opened the door to the previously non-elect, so that through faith they too may be saved. Not that they are "the elect of God" but that they THROUGH FAITH, become the children of God. "The elect" need not worry about such mundane things as faith, because they are chosen by God from the foundation of the world. All others come through faith.

    For by grace, ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourself, YOUR SALVATION is a gift of God, Not something you can earn through your works lest any one should have something to boast about.

    The number of names in the Book of Life is volatile, and changes continuously because of those who come to faith, whose names were not previously written in the book, and for those who, along the way, lose their faith and get their names "blotted from" the book of life. Faith in God is what brings life to man, nothing else!
     
  9. nwells

    nwells New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”" (John 6:29, NASB95)

    That I believe is the work of God - not of me.

    As far as limited attonment:

    Romans 5:10 "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

    1 Peter 2:24 "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

    2 Corinthians 5:18-20 "Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

    But I have yet to be convinced that we must re-format our simple understanding of verses such as John 3:16 (God loved the world and sent His Son to die for them)

    Rather this:

    Romans 5:18-19 (NASB95)
    "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."

    I believe the Bible looks at the death of Christ in two ways - first that Christ died for the whole world, meaning that Christ died for all - He died for the sins of the whole world. But as it is written to be saved one must believe - and so the sacrifice is not the part that is effectual, the part that is effectual is the act of believing and THAT act of believing comes from God - it is His work for us to believe - His sacrifice was to justify the whole world, but only those whom the Father grants it to them will believe.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    With one exception NWells, you have spoken well and accurately.

    The Exception is that Jesus did not die for man! Jesus' death was the payment of the penalty of sin.

    No one is saved by Jesus death! Neither are any saved except that Jesus die to pay the penalty for sin. Thus, the penalty that existed for those who sin is NO LONGER! Jesus paid that penalty ONCE-For-ALL. Sins then are no longer a factor in man's salvation, which is "through faith".
     
  11. nwells

    nwells New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am still in the process of searching the Scriptures on this topic but I thought I would throw out some verses for discussion (I am moving away from what I first said as I look more closely at what the Bible says - to be honest I have never thoroughly studied this doctrine).

    1 John 4:14
    "We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

    1 Timothy 4:10
    "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

    I think Paul's words shed some light on the subject.

    Christ is the Savior of all men in that not that Christ paid the penalty for their sin (for if He did than they would go to heaven and not have to pay it themselves in hell) but that the whole world benefits from His death on the cross - God could have destroyed everything but God rather was patient and has allowed men to live for thousands of years - in the same way as Jesus says (as a common grace to all men):
    Matthew 5:45b (NASB95)
    "...for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

    But Savior especially of believers in that He bought us by His blood:

    Acts 20:28 (NASB95)
    "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

    He redeemed us from the curse of the law through His act of hanging on the cross:

    Galatians 3:13 (NASB95)
    "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”"

    He laid his life down FOR us (His sheep) - which is not the same as, "a man died as he attempted to save a child" - Christ died in our place, died on our behalf, meaning that we do not have to die and pay for our sins but that He did it for us.

    John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

    And so we know who the sheep are:

    John 10:26-29 (NASB95)
    26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
    27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
    29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."

    These are just some thoughts out in the open - your thoughts?

    Because He lives,
    Nathan
     
  12. Felix

    Felix Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2002
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Nathan,

    The verses you have accumulated are a fine collection. When you have some time, do a word study in the writings of the Apostle John and see how he uses the word 'world'. In his Gospel alone, the word 'world' means at least 7(SEVEN) different things depending on the context. Ex. In John 3:17 this word occurs 3x and it means three different things...

    By the way, by far the best and most exhaustive book / study I have ever read on this subject (Limited Atonement) is John Owen's 'The Death of Death in the Death of Jesus Christ'. He is very thorough!! Your soul will be blessed by it.

    God bless,

    Felix
     
  13. nwells

    nwells New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the recommendation of the book by John Owen - I will see if I can get a copy of it and read it.

    Have a great day in the Lord,
    Nathan
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Felix;
    Here we go again the application of English defintions on what was originally written in Ancient Greek. The word Kosmos has only one meaning not seven.
    May God Bless you;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right. Translators of the Word have not always done us a favor. That is why having a working knowledge of the original language is a plus.

    I John 5:19 suggests that the total world lies in wickedness. The earth is neutral. Sinners are what makes our world wicked. God created the world and the galaxies; every sinner makes up those who are involved in wickedness. John the Apostle claims that it was to these lost ones, that God came to save. [John 3:17 & I John 2:2]

    No Bible believer should have a problem with this truth. But watch! :rolleyes:
     
  16. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    That which is not imposed upon you cannot be "bad news" to you. The Jews were the ones to whom the Laws of God delivered by Moses, applied. They were not delivered to any but those who were in the wilderness being led by Moses, and their descendents.

    What they received is the forerunner of what would apply to us all, but at the time given, they only applied to the formerly captive Jews.

    Even Jesus' atonement for sin does not save us! But without it we could not have everlasting life. It is our faith in God that sanctifies us, and as Jesus told Nicodemus, those who believe in the Son of God are not Condemned, but those who believe not are condemned by their unbelief. The condemnation is this, those who do not believe do not get their names written in the book of life.

    Those who come to belief in Jesus, get their names written in the book of Life, and are thus among the "elect of God", for they shall not face judgment, but shall pass from death into everlasting life.

    As for Jesus Atonement for sin? It is ALL inclusive!
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very good truth at least in my book.

    You may not agree with this but God searches the entire world and the isles of the sea, looking for those who will have faith in Him.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very good truth at least in my book.

    You may not agree with this but God searches the entire world and the isles of the sea, looking for those who will have faith in Him.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Oh but I do agree with it, and His travel plans for us are out of this world!
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wes Outwest,

    Right again, and I am ready to see my Redeemer at the end of my life or at His glorious coming! It is all because of His grace and mercy. Let His Name be praised!
     
Loading...