L=Limited Atonement

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destrutive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

False prophets bought by the Master?

 

Hello Timtoolman.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

The Lord bought them, the false ones, He owns them.
The thing He bought is 'them' not redemption for them!
Christ's sacrifice paid sufficiently for all and everone everyborn or to be born. He redeemed the Christian.
This is a good question. I don't know but I bet that 'bought' is not used anywhere else or in connection with salvation
I got some help from here; http://www.aomin.org/2PE21.html

What you think?

johnp.

 

Johnp,

If you are saying that the Atonement for sin covers every sin and sinner, friend and foe of our Lord Jesus, then I agree with you. The payment of the penalty for sin that Jesus paid covers sin whether committed by those true or by those false. All sins, save for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit are covered, Penalty? Paid in FULL!

If you are saying that the atonement for sin does not cover the sins of virtually ALL mankind, then I do not agree with you.

 

Atonement was made--

For His sheep only.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

When Isreal had to paint the posts of their house with the blood so that the death angel would pass over......does that mean that only those that applied the blood where really saved. All could but it had to be applied by ...hmmm, sinners.

Tim

 

Notice in II Peter 2:1 that God did not autocratically damn the false teachers, but God says through Peter that ‘they brought on themselves swift (eternal) destruction.’

The false teachers denied the reality of the Lord God and along with this brought into the congregation damaging heresies. One lesson is that we must be people of the Book.

These heretics denied the Lord Who ‘ . . . bought them.’ The Greek word for ‘bought’ is {agorasanta}. Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest interprets this word with these words.

The base word, (agorazo), is ‘ . . . one of the three words used in the N.T. which are translated “redeem.” The word in classical use meant “to purchase in the market place,” and was used of the purchase of slaves in the slave-market. Our Lord’s precious, outpoured blood was the ransom paid to redeem slaves of sin from that slavery. . . . These were not misguided Christians, but heretics.

Wuest’s translation: ‘But there arose also false prophets among the people, even as also among you there shall be false teachers, who will be of such a character as to bring in alongside (of true doctrine) destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who purchased them, bring upon themselves swift destruction.’

All sinners are in this slave-market of sin, with only one Redeemer/Mediator, Who is our Lord. He did not only die for the relative few but for all lost souls. This is the reason why the Godhead had the Apostle Peter use the words, ‘that the Lord bought them.’

Apparently, they remained in their sins, one of which was the heresy of denying the substitutionary death of Jesus for lost sinners.[I Timothy 2:4 {wishes} all people will be saved; & I John 2:2]

 

Jesus' atonement (payment for) is for Sin, not for sinner!

Without Jesus' atonement for sin, there could be no eternal life because everyone who sins receives the same wage...Death! But Jesus took upon himself ALL sin, and paid for it with his divine innocent life ONCE, for ALL!

Not one single human being has been saved by Jesus death! It is not death that saves us, especially our own. But, not one single human being has everlasting life without Jesus death.

Bro. James, Jesus' death was by design the payment for the wage of Sin. Jesus death is not for any person at all, but for the penalty of sin!

Can I say it again? Jesus death is not for any person at all, but for the penalty of sin!

Therefore, all who sin, and that is more than Jesus "sheep", have had their sins atoned for already, before they even commit them! They have no excuse for not believing in Jesus. There is no excuse such as "I'm so bad God wouldn't want me", or "I'm not worthy to be saved", there simply is no excuse. It's all a matter of FAITH. Faith alone sanctifies the believer and Faith alone is what saves, Election does not save us! FAITH is our white robe of righteousness that God sees and through which HE saves us as He did Abraham.

 

I am sorry Wes,

To say that Christ did not die for His sheep is a false statement - are you right or is Jesus Christ right?

Jesus says:
John 10:14-15 (NASB95)
“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Who are the sheep you might ask:

John 10:25-26 (NASB95)
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

The sheep are those that believe in Jesus Christ - Jesus died, not for those who do not believe, but for those who believe, that is Jesus died for His sheep.

We can debate about what these words mean (for instance, are there other sheep besides those that belong to Christ) - but in regards to your statement - Jesus says clearly said He died for the sheep - not for sin ONLY but ALSO for the sheep (that is the sinner). Jesus died for sinners, He died in their place.

1 Peter 3:18 (NASB95)
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Sin and sinners both - He died for sins - He, being the just One, died for the unjust (the sinners).


There is One truth - God's Word,
-Nathan

[ December 07, 2004, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: nwells ]

 

Do you even understand what ATONEMENT is? It is one paying another's debt. Atonement is not Salvation, because the one who had the debt could not receive salvation because of the debt. Now with the debt paid in Full, there is no obstacle to my receiving salvation through faith.

Jesus cleared the way for us to receive the Salvation promised to "whosoever believeth in HIM!" That whosoever included me, and you! Sin is no longer a factor in our salvation. It has been dealt a fatal blow by Jesus.

"For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH....." If Jesus death on the cross is what saves us, this sentence would read "For by Grace are ye saved through the death of Jesus..." Or, "For by grace are ye saved by atonement...."

All through scripture it is FAITH that is spoken of as being the salvific factor, and nothing else.

So Jesus' death atoned for sin, not for me, not for you, not for Jesus sheep, not for the pope, Jesus' death was not person specific. Just as through one man sin entered the world, through one man sin was atoned! Jesus' death was for the purpose of removing the final barrier to man having everlasting life, and that barrier was sin!

Believers are the beneficiaries of the removed barrier because through belief (Faith) believers receive everlasting life.

The sins of unbelievers are just as atoned for as those of believers. The difference is this, God saves ALL who have faith in Him! God saves NONE of those who lack faith in him, but instead casts them into the lake of fire, the second death!

 

if my debt is paid - why do I go to hell to pay for my debt?

if Jesus died FOR me then why do I have to die AGAIN?

I grant what you say about our salvation being of faith - it says it plain right there in Eph. I was addressing what you said - Christ did not die for the sinnner - did you not read what I said?

Why did you use a verse that talks nothing of the death of Christ to prove what it was Jesus died for?

If what you say is true "So Jesus' death atoned for sin, not for me, not for you, not for Jesus sheep, not for the pope"

Then why did Jesus say that He died for the sheep? Did Jesus not say He died for the sheep?

Who Jesus died for and faith are different subjects...

-Nathan

 

NNE GOES TO HELL TO PAY A DEBT! The only reason one is cast into the lake of fire is because his name is not found in the book of life! The way to get your name written in the book of life is to HAVE FAITH IN GOD! FAITH IN GOD IS THE KEY! With FAITH one passes from death into everlasting life, without faith one is cast into the lake of fire! Sins are 'works' and 'works' are not a factor in Salvation.

"It is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment." This natural life's death of the flesh is the separating of the spirit from the flesh. That must take place in every human because all flesh is corrupt and there can be no corruption in Heaven! That is also why the Lake of fire is called the second death, because it is the death of spirit!

Granted, but Jesus also said that he died to atone for the sins of the World! "The world exists from its foundation to its final "passing away" Revelation 19." He did not limit the scope of sins to those of "his sheep", but included the world. If the sins are atoned for thus making everlasting life possible, then the sheep, those who believe in Jesus, can have everlasting life because of, or through their FAITH, while those who are not his sheep because of their lack of FAITH, get cast into the lake of fire, the second death which is spirit death, even though their sins are likewise atoned. Sin is not a factor in Salvation!

Why, when he said that, did he not say all the sinners of the world? If he had, then there is no reason for faith! Faith separates the sheep from the goats! Faith sanctifies the believer, setting us apart from those who are to be judged and cast into the lake of fire. In John 3:18, Jesus makes is clear that Faith, believing, keeps the believer from judgment while lack of faith is self condemnation and all who lack faith will be judged, that is, cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14,15.

Jesus' death removes the penalty of sin from mankind that God the Father cursed mankind with because man sinned. Did God make a mistake? I don't know you'll have to ask him that question. But I do know that Atonement is for sin, and not for the sinners! Else there is no reason to confess our sins and be forgiven, 1 John 1:9,10. Sins are deeds, "works" if you will, and sinners are souls. Just as our salvation is "not of works", our sins do not prevent our salvation because they are works. It is God's plan to redeem souls from the curse of sinning which removed all possibility of everlasting life, because the soul that sins was condemned to death, the second death of spirit.

 

WesOutwest,

Good preaching on your first post on page four.

It will be the 'blood' of Jesus during the future Great Tribulation that will cleanse those people and their robes in making them white. [Revelation 7:14]

The fine linen became white and clean [Revelation 19:14 b,c]because of the blood of the Lamb of God. [John 1:29 c, d]

 

Wes, your case is blown man.
You say that in the death of Jesus sin has been dealt with as if that is atonement. Atonement you claim is not dependant on individuals but universal. The fact that it is individual is shown by God in the way He dealt with Eli's sons. Atonement is paticular. `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' 1 Sam 3:14. Yet you must believe that their sins have been atoned for. That opposes scripture directly. You are in God's face.

That is from the Devil mate. So blatantly Satanic. This is Arminianism in all of it's glory? That the death of Jesus just paid a price to God for sin and that is all the death of Jesus did? That the great and glorious Saviour did in fact save no one! Just made it possible for us to save ourselves. The great and glorious Shepherd might give a call to the lost sheep but leave them alone and they will come home, maybe!
He called me by name, I heard Him and followed Him. He would not let me walk behind Him but alongside Him. That is what He thinks of me. Love is personal. My Saviour. ...The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Eli's sons make it a limited atonement. End of story.

johnp.

 

My Case stands JohnP!

What you are overlooking is the truth that Eli's atonements were performed repeatedly and at least annually for the sins of the Nation of Israel, and individually as often as an individual person or family brought an animal for sacrifice. Jesus' Atonement for sin was, and is a ONCE FOR ALL atonement that ended animal sacrifice, except for those who remain "UNDER THE LAW" Those who refuse the Grace of God remain under the Law of God. Jesus did ONCE what Eli's sacrifices could not do!

Eli's shame is tantamount to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and scriptures say that Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven, so it is likewise not atoned for because if you reject the Holy Spirit, how can you have FAITH? If you have no Faith, you are not saved!.

In case you don't know it we all are in God's face! None of us measures up!

 

Wes.

Eli's shame was not spending time with his kids and for that they were lost and he is held responsible. He is saved. What did Eli do that was so bad? Do you know the story? He was like a lot of dad's.

And they achieved nothing did they? They were not meant to achieve anything were they? They were a sign, a shadow or a type not the reality. Since they were performed for the nation of Israel yearly as you say then it was a limited atonement was it not? Limited to Israel, not given for the world. Same today!
Israel was a type. The reality is the Church. Spiritual Israel does not need atoning for any more, it was done once by the blood of the Lamb, the reality of the blood. No amount of animal blood was good enough.
As the world did not benefit from the atonement sacrifices of the nation of Israel so the world does not benefit from the atoning sacrifice of Christ my Redeemer. It's for spiritual Israel alone. Same as it ever was.

I know of only one law. The one you find in Exodus. Is that the law you mean?

Yes but He did not do it for everyone did He? I'll rephrase that, He did not atone for all sin because Eli's children were never to be atoned for.
`The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' 1 Sam 3:14.
When God says that Eli's children would never be atoned for He meant it.
Since there is sin left around unatoned for then Jesus did not die for all sin.

I find your post very confusing. If I am not understanding you give me a chance. At the end of the post you say, "...and scriptures say that Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven, so it is likewise not atoned for..."
Forgive me but that looks like limited atonement to me.
When you said, "Granted, but Jesus also said that he died to atone for the sins of the World!" (Posted 08 December, 2004 14:08.) I thought you meant that but now you say He did not atone for the sins of the world just most of them?
Which is it?

In the same post you err. You say, "...while those who are not his sheep because of their lack of FAITH..." This clearly flies in the face of scripture. That is; Their lack of faith is because they are not His sheep."
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

johnp.

 

TO WHOM is Jesus speaking! He is not speaking to or of the gentiles! So who is it that He is speaking to? Is not the entirety of the Jews who are God's chosen race?

Have you ever considered that Eli may not have offered a sacrifice for his own family? Could it be that he was too busy rendering the sacrifices of others to be concerned about his own? Wouldn't that show a lack of faith?

Your point about atonement is understood, but not agreed with. I'll research some more and get back to you. Because what you are saying is that the Gentiles are have no atonement for sin!

 

Wes.

The entirety of the chosen nation is not included. All Israel never were part of spiritual Israel. Jacob I loved Esau I hated. As the nation of Israel was infested with pagans so to the Church today. Same as Israel ever was so it remains. There is nothing new under the sun.
But it does not matter who He speaks to does it? If He says, "You are not mine. Therefore you have no faith." That is limited atonement.

Thank you.

Not Gentile, goat. No atonement for those outside spiritual Israel. Jew or Gentile.

johnp.

 

Wes.

For a start, whether Eli was too busy doing God's work that he neglected the children's upbringing is just conjecture. For a second start one that has crossed my mind I must admit. It is obvious that as a leader of God's people he failed in his primarly responsibility. His family. But if he participated in the rituals of Israel his children would have been part of that atoning that took place. There must have been a lot happening. Party time! Lots of food. Special days especially for the sheep.
You seem to be saying that the sacrifices of Eli somehow had merit. Are you? The sacrifice he should have made would have been the sacrifice of dealing with the kids now and again. Left it up to the missus? Messed up? Just like the rest of us then 'a'?

How can that be caused by a lack of faith?
You must define what faith is.

This is mine. That Jesus Christ died for my sins.
My definition of faith is not: Faith.

Since you are you saying that when you sin you sin because you lack faith then I would not argue with that, I don't think. I think it needs some more think. If you lack faith you must automatically start to fear. Love casts out fear. That is faith. This doubting that comes to me occasionally all the time warns me that my faith has switched off. I flick it back on again by believing that Jesus has died for my sins. He said that. He died for my sins. I heard Him call me, "John!" Then He said, very soon after, "No one can snatch you out of my hand." I believed Him. I trust Him, He said, "No one can snatch you out of my Father's hand." Why don't you want that instead of that false god free will? I want to believe this, that love I want. I'd rather live with this love and die the death rather than give this love up! That is commitment. Commitment is love. God is love and He is commitment.
He knows His own sheep by name, John 10:3. Which means He does not mean the world does He?
"John, John." He said to me. I was in full flight from Him. I did not want to be a Christian. I was overcome by irresistible grace. Really. I was about to join the Jehovah's witnesses, trying to find a loophole. I did not submit I was taken. Was I taken. Swept off my feet.
So now you will have to deal with me on my personal experience as well!
I have said that a man converted while he is being baptisted will die for the belief that baptismal regeneration is true. So with me. When I read that God has mercy on who He wants I had no option but to believe Him. Not that alone. When I learned that God has mercy on who He wants I rejoiced at that. I learned a thing from the bible that agreed with my experience. And continues. My faith is strong. It is strong because I know myself and to some degree what that sin in me is like. He showed me a glimpse of it. I am a sinner. Romans 3:9-18 descibes me perfectly praise the Lord for showing me. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord and praise the Lord!
Sinners man. That is all we are and that negates good.
Selfrighteousness does not become the Children of God. All glory to Him. We are a Royal Priesthood, a chosen people. That's where it's at man! We serve Him who provides everything, good and bad.
Chosen. Just because.

Peace. From a sinner who is sin just like you.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP
My Savior died for the entire world;
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world .
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world .

I agree that Christ came to die for his sheep as well but also for the world. Now you can argue that the word "World" doesn't mean everyone but that wouldn't mean you are right it would just mean that your argument is with out bases. To say that Christ only came to save His sheep which were already his is rather ridiculous.

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Could you amplify on your definition of faith, since as you say yours is not "faith"?