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L=Limited Atonement

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by annie, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    The Lord bought them, the false ones, He owns them.
    The thing He bought is 'them' not redemption for them!
    Christ's sacrifice paid sufficiently for all and everone everyborn or to be born. He redeemed the Christian.
    This is a good question. I don't know but I bet that 'bought' is not used anywhere else or in connection with salvation
    I got some help from here; http://www.aomin.org/2PE21.html

    What you think?

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]John I read the article, rather long, but I believe the author is right. First time I had someone give me an honest answer to that verse. Thanks for sharing.

    Tim
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Jesus died for the sins of the world. [John 1:29 & I John 2:2] Christ's atonement is adequate for every lost soul.

    Christ died and by so doing sealed its positive result for all who believe. 'Believe . . . ' [Acts 2:21] His death sanctified the truth that it was a completed act before the Father on behalf of sinners. [I Cor. 15:3 & I John 2:2]

    His resurrection assured us of the fact that He is Divine and that He is really God, through His ascension into Heaven. [John ch. 14 & Acts 1:9]

    This is the Biblical view of His life, death, resurrection and ascension. This is only a brief sketch; there is more that happened and still is more taking place today. He is preparing Heaven for us and will return for His people.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Yep, the Atonement for sin covers all! The result is that "whosoever believeth in him" does in reality receive everlasting life, the Gift of God to man.

    If you don't believe in him, it doesn't matter one whit whether that your sins are atoned. It is human faith in Divine God that sanctifies the human into salvation!
     
  4. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Ray,
    If you are saying that Jesus paid the sins of even those individuals in hell than:

    Why are not all then saved?
    If you say unbelief... Then:

    1.)Is not unbelief a sin? (whatever is not of faith is sin)

    2.)If it is a sin, then did not Christ pay for it?

    3.)If he paid for the sin of unbelief, then would that not be double jepeordy? God punishing Jesus and then you for the same sin?

    4.)If he did not pay for the sin of unbelief, then did He pay for "all" their sins or only some?

    In Christ...
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Wes.

    I was always told that it is rude to answer a question with a question. I needed your answer really.
    You believe that your faith is yours. Generated from you. But what is it? A belief in what? A belief in your faith. That you believe you believe, but what do you believe?
    If you believe that you can unbelieve, for want of a better word, what can you unbelieve, your belief?

    There was some interesting ideas going on earlier. About how believing was not a work. You either believed it or you did not. Don't take effort.
    You see I believe that Jesus died for my sins. That is what I believe. That is what the scriptures teach. Salvation by faith alone. Faith is believing in Jesus. But the fallen angels believe in Jesus and so did Judas. So believing in Jesus for salvation does not mean that does it? Believing in Jesus must mean believing that He died for my sins. Since He died for my sins, [He] loved me and gave himself for me, Gal 2:20, then there is now no condemnation for me, Rom 8:1. Simple. I am told that whoever believes that Jesus Christ died for them then they are saved. Simple. I'm simple I believed that. That is faith from first to last. He died for my sins. I want to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. That is faith.

    1 Cor 2:2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

    I was given this belief as a gift from God. And it is there I fall down on my face before Him in awe.

    Faith, the word, is used by many. If it is not used in the sense I have said then it is not the right faith. Therefore it is not faith.
    That is why I said I don't believe in faith. You do. Because you do not believe Jesus died for your sins. You might believe He died for all sins but you don't believe He died for you. [That's a stab in the dark really. I can't remember what everyone believes in. If it don't do for you it does for one of the others and it's your fault for not answering me.][No! It's God's]
    And that is what the whosoevers is all about. Those that believe He died for their sins then He died for their sins and gain everlasting life.

    Unbelief is a sin. John 6:29 The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
    Belief in Jesus is required by God. Failure to obey this command is a sin. Jesus died for my sins. I am dead to the law. I am saved. Past tense. He said that if I believed I would have everlasting life. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. John 6:47.
    How can I lose everlasting life. I only need to believe once to everlasting life. If I can lose that then it was not everlasting was it?

    Expanded enough?

    I've shown yer mine, now show me yours.

    johnp.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I was always told that it is rude to answer a question with a question. I needed your answer really.
    You believe that your faith is yours. Generated from you. But what is it? A belief in what? A belief in your faith. That you believe you believe, but what do you believe?</font>[/QUOTE]What kind of double talk is this? If you don't know what faith is how can you claim to have any of it? And I know you've been making that claim, now haven't you?

    Whatever you can believe, you can unbelieve. For example: Santa Claus! As a child you may have believed that there really was a jolly ol' fat guy in a red suit with white trim, with a full beard, that could make reindeer fly and visit the every home in the world in one night. However, at some point in your life you stopped believing that there is a real physical Santa. Instead, though you may still believe in the "spirit of Santa", you assumed his role in the lives of your own children. What you believed in you now do not believe in. Why did you stop believing as you did as a child? Is it not because you gained knowledge that changed your persuasion, your belief?

    No sir, that which you claim to be faith is simply 'truth', not faith! Scripture says that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for..." What is it you hope for? Do you hope that Jesus died for you? Do you hope that what you said is truth?

    You say that you "believe that Jesus died for your sins". Wow, that really is something to believe in. You savior is dead!

    I believe that Jesus arose from the dead, is alive and is at the right hand of the Father in Heaven interceding on my behalf. I believe that because of what Jesus did by dying for sin, includes my sins, and that my sins will never be charged against me because the penalty has been paid, so now I don't have to die because of my sins, but instead can through believing in Jesus have everlasting life.

    But alas, My faith is not exactly the same as yours, so I guess my faith is not the right faith, and since it is not just like yours, it is not faith at all!


    Everlasting life is not the result of you believing Jesus died for you. It is the result of you believing in Jesus the living person of God, the risen Lord and savior. It is believing strongly enough that you place your life in his hands and don't attempt to take it back from Him. That is faith!

    You are misreading John 6:29. The work of the father, means that it is the work that He has already done to that we believe in His only begotten Son. God worked to give us his word so that by hearing his word we will believe. God worked to remove the penalty for sin so that we who sin do not have to die, but can through our faith have everlasting life. God's work is finished, Jesus said so from the Cross.

    It is "life" that is being called 'everlasting', not belief. Actually, when we are together with Jesus, we have no need of belief. Our belief will exist no longer because we are in His presence and have no further need of faith or belief.

    I trust that you can tell the difference between a truth, and faith!
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Wes.

    When I saw the truth I did not continue with the lie. Yet you say I can unbelieve the truth and return to Santa! You cannot prove that statement, it is meaningless.

    Simply truth is what I acknowledge. That Christ died for my sins. Simple Truth is what He is.

    My hope is not wishful, as if He is a Santa only visiting those He deems worthy, but a certainty. My hope is based on His promies, His promise I believe.

    That His death brought me all the benefits it was intended to bring me. But He lives for me as well. I told you I have patience.

    There is no place for flippancy at the cross.

    That is what Satan and Judas believed in. Am I no different? Did Judas not believe in Jesus when he betrayed Him? Does Satan not believe in Jesus? You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. James 2:19. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. Rom 4:25.

    You teach then that you are saved by works and not by Jesus therefore you are not saving but damning those that believe you.
    Tell me, can I return to a belief in Santa? That would be a strange thing.

    Then that should read: The work of God 'was' this.
    You twist the scripture to fit your belief but the scripture will not bend. Jesus was answering the question, "What must we do to do that which God requires?" Answer, "The work God requires is that you believe."

    JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
    The word is against you. That is not a misreading and it is not a twisting to fit it in. The word says that we must believe, you agree there, the word says that it is a work to believe. That is what you don't like and you cover it over with a fig leaf.

    That's what I said. If you believe then you have everlasting life. If you receive everlasting life then you live forever. If it is possible to unbelieve you must still have everlasting life or it was not everlasting life. Or do you believe that when He gives you everlasting life He can take it away again? If He does then it was not everlasting was it? It's simple.

    That's right. There is only one faith. Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
    It is our responsibility to get the message right. Failure here leads others to death. Teaching that people can produce their own faith is against the scriptures and results in death.
    To believe that Jesus exists is not salvation. To hope that He saves you is not faith. To believe He died for your sins is faith.

    johnp.
     
  8. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    I like this paragraph above very much. [​IMG] A person can believe a system of theology and be lost. Trusting in the Person of Jesus is 'to touch the hemn of His garment.' It is believing that He can do what He claims and that I can do nothing to contribute toward saving myself as a sinner. We must totally abandon ourselves to His redemptive Being. The hymnist said, 'Only to the Cross I cling.'
     
  9. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Ray,
    If you are saying that Jesus paid the sins of even those individuals in hell than:

    Why are not all then saved?
    If you say unbelief... Then:

    1.)Is not unbelief a sin? (whatever is not of faith is sin)

    2.)If it is a sin, then did not Christ pay for it?

    3.)If he paid for the sin of unbelief, then would that not be double jepeordy? God punishing Jesus and then you for the same sin?

    4.)If he did not pay for the sin of unbelief, then did He pay for "all" their sins or only some?
     
  10. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Where do you guys get come up with the idea that believe and unbelief equate to righteousness and unrighteousness respectively?

    It is true that we act out our beliefs, that is, if we believe in Jesus, we are going to act accordingly.

    If we do not believe in Jesus, we will likewise act accordingly.

    Belief is not action, it is not works, it is nothing more that mental/spiritual persuasion based on knowledge. Gaining knowledge is a work, using knowledge is a work, but possessing knowledge is not a work, therefore persuasion based on knowledge is not a work! If not a work the absence of it cannot be sin!

    Faith cometh by hearing...Hearing is "the acquiring of knowledge"...and hearing comes from the Word of God. That is, the knowledge needed for faith in Jesus, God the son, comes from the word of God. Faith comes from hearing the word of God! "Comes from" does not mean that faith is what the word of God contains, because the word of God contains knowledge which we take into our databank, our "reasoner", reviewing the knowledge, arrives at conclusions based upon the knowledge. FAITH is only of the possible conclusions that may be arrived at. NO FAITH is another possible conclusion. "Almost Persuaded" is yet another conclusion. Faith comes from within the human, and is based on the knowledge the human has about the object of faith. To increase faith one must increase knowledge. Again the increasing of knowledge may be a work, but the faith gained as the result of increased knowledge is not a work.

    How can unbelief be a sin, if there is no action "or works" in possessing it. Unbelief may be nothing more than the absence of belief, so if belief is not present, unbelief must be present. Again, NO SIN!

    Because all sins are atoned, ONCE FOR ALL, by Jesus, there is no charge of sin that can be levied against man! The Penalty has been paid ONCE FOR ALL and cannot be assessed against us again. So if unbelief is sin, it cannot be charged against one. Unbelief is the absence of belief. Belief is required in one for one to receive everlasting life (salvation) as a free gift from God.

    Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejection of the Holy Spirit. The one who does so, cannot have faith in God, because the Holy Spirit is God. If you are not receptive to the Holy Spirit, how can you be receptive to God's Word? Or God's Son? or God the Father? What makes one think that God will overlook one's rejection and give one everlasting life?
     
  11. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Believing that Jesus exists is not the requirement for salvation. Believing in Jesus as your personal savior is!

    "Believing that" vs "Believing in".

    Knowing that Jesus died for my sins, and indeed the sins of the world, is not "BELIEVING IN" Jesus, it is simply knowing that some character from some 2000 years ago claims that he died for sins. Believing in the "who" and "what" of Jesus is where faith becomes evident. Jesus is the son of God, the Christ, and I believe in HIM! He enabled me to have everlasting life by dying in my stead for my sins so that through MY INDIVIDUAL PERSONAL FAITH IN HIM, I can have everlasting life. I believe IN HIM, not just one of the things he did!
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    And where do you get your idea it does not? If you are a follower of a church would you give me the address so that I can see a statement of faith from them please?
    As rude as you now answering a question with a question.

    If your actions originate in you then that would be playacting. Are you taking credit for your good works?

    1CO 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

    And that you haven't got. The rest of that passage is apt as well.

    JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." How can unbelief be a sin? With your theology I don't know how anything can be regarded as a sin in the normal way. Since you say that Jesus died for all sin then it is not a problem is it? The wages of sin is death. Death only follows sin and if unbelief is a sin then Jesus paid the penalty for it. If unbelief is not a sin then it cannot be condemned. But unbelief is not the thing you die for anyway. The death sentence has been passed on sinners already, it is the refusal to escape the judgement passed already, on sin.
    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18.
    Stands condemned already because of their sins that Jesus did not die for. Like the sins He did not die for regarding Eli's children.

    If you are not? What do you mean 'if'? Rom 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

    1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    All men reject Him.

    Not 'just dying for our sin'! Not just one of the things He did?

    But your saviour did not save you, He only 'enabled' you. My Saviour is my Saviour.

    That's as far as you got with the truth. It was downhill all the way after that. And how do I know Jesus died for my sins unless He told me?
    1CO 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

    The crucifixtion reduced to just another thing.

    johnp.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    And where do you get your idea it does not? If you are a follower of a church would you give me the address so that I can see a statement of faith from them please? As rude as you now answering a question with a question.</font>[/QUOTE]Righteousness and unrighteousness are the manifestations of ones faith, they are not equal to ones faith.

    A statement of faith is nothing more than a creed. I may hold to part of a creed without holding to all of the creed, so it would be a futility for me to send you a statement of faith from the church I attend. If you find what I post to be out of bounds with your own beliefs, it is me you need to deal with and not the congregation that I worship with.

    If your actions originate in you then that would be playacting. Are you taking credit for your good works?</font>[/QUOTE]Well as a matter of fact I am obedient to Peter's teaching to believers.
    Peter tells us to to do good works. Peter knew that we are capable of doing good works. When I say we I am talking about believers.

    1CO 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

    And that you haven't got. The rest of that passage is apt as well.</font>[/QUOTE]Judge not, lest ye be judged!

    With your theology I don't know how anything can be regarded as a sin in the normal way. Since you say that Jesus died for all sin then it is not a problem is it? The wages of sin is death. Death only follows sin and if unbelief is a sin then Jesus paid the penalty for it. If unbelief is not a sin then it cannot be condemned. But unbelief is not the thing you die for anyway. The death sentence has been passed on sinners already, it is the refusal to escape the judgement passed already, on sin. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18. Stands condemned already because of their sins that Jesus did not die for. Like the sins He did not die for regarding Eli's children.</font>[/QUOTE]You have a real grasp of Atonement, yes sir, a real grasp!

    If you are not? What do you mean 'if'? Rom 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

    1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    All men reject Him.</font>[/QUOTE]Ya know John, more exists than what appears to be the two extremes we see addressed on this BBS. There is more than Totally Depraved, and Totally Holy, there is a range of conditions between those two extremes, none of which that are outside the scope of scriptural definition. Yet, here, we all seem to dwell in the two extremes. Why is that?

    Not 'just dying for our sin'! Not just one of the things He did?</font>[/QUOTE]Faith in God is not just believing in one of God's works, Works is plural, so that means there were other works, if there are other works and we do not accept them with the same ferver as the one work of God that you seem to dwell on, we make ourselves very incomplete in our beliefs.

    But your saviour did not save you, He only 'enabled' you. My Saviour is my Saviour.</font>[/QUOTE]Oh but you are so very wrong. Jesus' death did not save even one single person! But because He died, whosoever believeth in him does not have to die, but has everlasting life because the penalty for sin has been paid ONCE for ALL. Paying the penalty for sin it the whole purpose for Christ to die. Yes, he died so that you might have life, and have it abundantly. But he does not give you that life without you having faith in him, and faith comes from hearing the word of God, the more of the word of God you take in, the greater your faith. As for enabling me? Yes, Jesus' atonement for my sins did enable me by God's grace to have faith in Him, and by having faith in Him, I have been given everlasting life.

    That's as far as you got with the truth. It was downhill all the way after that. And how do I know Jesus died for my sins unless He told me? 1CO 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.</font>[/QUOTE]OK, but knowing that Jesus died for your sins is not what saved you, even satan knows that Jesus' death on the cross was his death nell because Jesus proved victorious.

    The crucifixion reduced to just another thing.</font>[/QUOTE]The Crucifixion is but one of the many marvelous things Jesus fulfilled in God's plan of Salvation of man. If Jesus had not raised the dead, healed the lame, made the blind to see, spoke eloquent truths in parables, Forgiven the unforgivable, Chosen twelve men, eleven of whom carried on his works and established His church among men, freed the captives, Promised life to all who believe in Him, established His love in the hearts of those who believe, Prayed for our souls to the Father, taught us how to pray to the Father among many other lessons, we simply would not believe in Him even though He died that we might have life.

    So, JohnP, it is Jesus in whom I have FAITH, and in whose hands I place my life, I will never try to take it back from Him.
     
  14. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    .

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    The Lord bought them, the false ones, He owns them.
    The thing He bought is 'them' not redemption for them!
    Christ's sacrifice paid sufficiently for all and everone everyborn or to be born. He redeemed the Christian.
    This is a good question. I don't know but I bet that 'bought' is not used anywhere else or in connection with salvation
    I got some help from here; http://www.aomin.org/2PE21.html

    What you think?

    Bought is used. Here are the places. I cor 6:20 and 7:23

    johnp. [/QB][/QUOTE]
     
  15. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Tim,
    That is a very good article that refutes those who take it out of its Grammatical Historical context.

    In Christ
     
  16. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Wes.

    Therefore since you say you believe because you choose to and that belief is regarded as faith then you, O' worthy one are selfrighteous are you not? Yes or no. :cool:

    That's fair enough. I suppose there are few thinking people that hold to all their churches beliefs. But I was asking about you and what you believed so that I could aim a bit better.
    I think it would be an idea if there was a page on the board where we could give a brief discription of our beliefs. It would save some confusion about who believes what.

    I asked you;
    Are you taking credit for your good works?
    You answered;
    Well as a matter of fact I am obedient to Peter's teaching to believers.
    Peter tells us to to do good works. Peter knew that we are capable of doing good works. When I say we I am talking about believers.


    So that is a yes then? :cool:

    You said;
    Belief is not action, it is not works, it is nothing more that mental/spiritual persuasion based on knowledge. Gaining knowledge is a work, using knowledge is a work, but possessing knowledge is not a work, therefore persuasion based on knowledge is not a work! If not a work the absence of it cannot be sin!

    I answered with 1 Cor 2:1 where I showed you that Paul showed us that persuasion does not cut the mustard. That belief comes from the power of God and not on clever arguments or how much you know.
    You replied Judge not, lest ye be judged! Which not only is a false understanding of scripture but is a false judgement on me. :cool:

    Now this just after telling us all that you are obedient to Peter's teaching.
    Atonement means to be at one with God. Jesus was my sacrifice of atonement which made God one with me. We are now friends. That is what the sacrifice of atonement does for one. To be made friends with God. It does not leave a person in a neutral condition but actively causes friendship.
    Since the sacrifice paid the penalty for my sin and caused God to like me how come you say I know not what I say?

    Judge not, lest ye be judged! Came down on me because I said, "You ain't got that."
    You have not got, "My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power." 1 Cor 2:4-5. Because you say that it is your faith and not God's. You say that it is by persuasion and knowledge. You have also said that the death of Christ was just one of the things Jesus did, Paul said, "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." The thing.

    I shall point out again, because this was also in that quote, How can unbelief be a sin, if there is no action "or works" in possessing it.
    JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." How can unbelief be a sin?
    And leave it there because I just like saying, "JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." :cool:
    Because it does not really matter if you accept those words or not. They stand anyway. Others will believe. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice."
    What I would like to know is why do you hold tenaciously to the word 'all' and declare that it means everyone ever born, when it obviously does not mean that, and refuse to believe a clear statement of fact.

    There are many beliefs. There are as many as there are people. Yet there is here no ground between holy and unholy. Righteousness and unrighteousness. Saint and sinner. To gain entry into the house of God one must be righteous, holy and blameless.
    Unless our righteousness is up to the standard of Jesus' then eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

    1 Cor 2:2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. :cool:

    I said;
    Believing that Jesus exists is not the requirement for salvation. Believing in Jesus as your personal savior is!
    I said;
    But your saviour did not save you, He only 'enabled' you. My Saviour is my Saviour.
    You replied;
    Oh but you are so very wrong. O good I thought, you do believe He is your Saviour but then you said;
    Jesus' death did not save even one single person! But because He died, whosoever believeth in him does not have to die, but has everlasting life because the penalty for sin has been paid ONCE for ALL. Paying the penalty for sin it the whole purpose for Christ to die.

    And Eli's sons get the atonement after God said there would be none offered for them ever? Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " 1 Sam 3:14. (I like that one as well!) :cool:

    And here's the serious bit.
    OK, but knowing that Jesus died for my sins is what saved me That is not quite right. Jesus saved me and gave me the knowledge that He died for my sins. My sins.

    Youth has an excuse for such arrogance. The never changing Wes. You leave me in awe.

    johnp.
     
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    FALSE BELIEF JohnP. The ATONEMENT does not make you friends with God, YOUR INDIVIDUAL FAITH IN GOD makes you friends with God, just as Abraham's faith made him friends with God! The atonement ended the power of sin over human life! BUT, it does not save anyone from the lake of fire, the second death, the death of spirit. The only thing that saves one from the second death is FAITH in God! It is your INDIVIDUAL PERSONAL FAITH IN GOD that gets your name written in the LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE! HUMAN FAITH IN GOD is the CRITERIA for individual human Salvation provided by God! WE DO THE FAITHING, GOD DOES THE SAVING!

    The Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus, the Son of God, did not cause God to like you! Jesus said "You are of the world", I am from above", God so loved "the world" that He gave his only begotten son, Jesus, that whoever believes in him receives everlasting life. Atonement is not the catalyst of friendship! IT is the extraordinary gift of God that removes the GOD IMPOSED PENALTY of DEATH for sin. Atonement pays that Penalty for sin so that we can have LIFE in spite of our sins by believing in Jesus. WE can have everlasting life. That is the purpose and FINISHED WORK of Atonement! Now, as a human, you either believe in Jesus and receive life eternal, or you do not believe in Jesus and get cast into the lake of fire! That is the Gospel!
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    I may be wrong but I think many sinners think I’m o.k. for now but when I am older I will give my heart to the Lord. This is clearly a satanic deception that apparently works well with the Devil’s patrons, especially the youth. It is not new news that none of us have a promise of tomorrow. Without receiving Christ people/sinners are walking around this world with a zip code marked for the flaming abyss. [John 3:18 b & c] His call to the lost sound urgent enough to me and should challenge us to witness to this fact.

    Without receiving the Son as personal Savior people miss all of the gifts that He offers through faith in His supernatural Name and power. They miss justification, sanctification, inner peace, adoption into the family of God and the promise of eternal life with Him above. I am sure that I have only touched the tip of the iceberg as to the unnumbered blessings that come from His loving Being toward lost souls.

    Believing and receiving is the top priority of those who are without hope in this world. [John 1:12; 3:16; I John 5:13; Revelation 22:17 f, g]
     
  19. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Wes.

    Shouting in bold? Love it!

    The atonement makes God friends with me. Reconciliation is involved.
    At one is the meaning of the word atonement. At one. Get it? Atone: 2 : to make amends -- used with for: (me), good ain't it? At one: 1 a : in a state of unity of feeling : in harmony : in a closely united friendly relationship [the poet felt at one with nature] b archaic : into peaceful agreement : into harmony -- used especially with bring, make, or set [he showed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren -- Acts 7:26 (Authorized Version)]
    2 : of an identical or sympathetic frame of mind : of the same opinion : in a state of agreement [on these points we are at one]
    As David was a man after God's own heart so am I.

    At one with God Wes. Atoned for.

    The spirit of man is dead. It is dead because our forefather Adam, bless him, died the moment he touched the tree. Since that time, just to recap, all men, and I mean all this time, are dead in their sins even as they are conceived. PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Gen 5:1-2 ... When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
    No longer in the image or likeness of God.

    Those that face the Lake of Fire, for it is a place, best avoided, are those that were not made at one with God. Since it is either a place you fear or think it a place you can use as a weapon of fear, for you mention it in nearly all your posts and twice in two paragraphs here, I would like to assure you that I will not be going there and, love drives out fear.

    John 15:19 (With amendments) If I belonged to the world, it would love me as its own. As it is, I do not belong to the world, but He has chosen me out of the world. That is why the world hates me.
    He is the horn of my salvation not me thank God. 2SA 22:3 my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn (source of strength) of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior--from violent men you save me.
    I do not put my trust in man as you do.

    Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    So it is by grace not by faith and if by grace then it is no longer anything to do with me. That grace saved me not my faith. Doesn't matter how much you shout in bold it does not change a thing. You lose.
    Our good works come from God and are not a thing we can see. We are sinners and are incapable of good in ourselves.

    Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
    John6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    johnp.

    "at one." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (14 Dec. 2004).
    "atone." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (14 Dec. 2004).
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    God does not apply His atonement without a believing trusting soul. [John 3:18] Thank God that He through the Holy Spirit is still calling a wooing the lost to Himself. 'God so loves . . . [​IMG] ' [John 3:16a]
     
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