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LEGALISM KILLS AND DESTROYS THE CHURCH

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dallasdid, Sep 15, 2003.

  1. Walls

    Walls New Member

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    I know what you are saying but I think the truth of the matter is:

    that when people first get saved, they generally don't know any better, but then as the Lord deals in their heart they see things that are wrong, and when they ask questions people respond against what the Lord has shown them, so they go to another church where they believe the same way.

    I speak from personal experience. The church were I was going when I first got married. Was wonderful in my eyes. My children went to the school there, the pews were packed and there was all kinds of ministries going on. But when the teen girls started getting pregnant and the high schooler were bring alcohol in the lockers and the music in the services changed from the old hymn book to this new stuff, it was time to go! That is not being legalist, it is family preservation.
     
  2. Dallasdid

    Dallasdid New Member

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    I am not at a legalistic church if I was I would leave. And legalism is just just what I feel it is. Legalism is condeming people who dont fit the baptist mold. There is a Christian teen in our church who got saved in last year are 2 and he has spike hair and wears black. If he was to go into most churches how many people would not give him dirty looks and already have their mind made up about him before they get to know him. I dont care what church of Christ do and methodist if they want to wear robes and have communion once a week hey go at it once again you have no clue what I was trying to say and so you resort to stupid questions that should never be asked. I grew up in a church that was this way. One time this kid who had spiked hair came there and he was new did not know if he was saved or lost and they the church people made fun of this hair. In front of every one they did it as a joke but the kid never came back. I went witnessing out to Springfield, Missouri to a place called the square. These kids got piercings all over and boy friend and girl friends making out while you talk to them. Profanity is like a second language. They have tee shirts that show the most wicked rock music bands around. One even has some kind of spike object on his head. These people if they ever came to church in a legalistic church would not be accepted. Would be judged right away would not be shown love to. This is what I am saying is wrong where if people dont look like us they dont belong to God. And see when you witness to these people unlike what some do you cant go through the romans road right away are even during conversation it would push them away. You have to form a relationship with them because these people are tired of having people tell them their wicked sinners going to hell and signs that depict people burning in hell. Now before all of you take my words and twist them listen to this. They need to be shown love yes you know that 4 letter word a lot of independent baptist lack. We witness to homeless people to 2 am they were well home less people the smell what they did. I could go "bless it u need to repent now " but see that would turn them off you guys Jesus did not shove stuff down peoples throat. He did it all in love. Here is the bottom line im tired of when you have people like this we never show love to them. We never take the time to build a relationship and show Christ through being their friends you cant go hell fire and brim stone on them and think oh this will work. Christ formed a relationship with people. Go ahead twist and show me why loving people and forming a relationship with them is wrong go ahead show me why we should give them hell fire and brim stone because you going to do it any way. But when we stand before God will the one who judged be the best are the one who despite what others thought went to minister to them share Christ through love.
     
  3. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    Dallas; There is a difference in being legalistic and having standards.

    Our church has standards. We also have a bus ministry and we bring in ALL kinds of people. We have a ministry for reforming drug addicts and alcoholics. We have a ministry for the mentally challenged.

    What you are saying is not necessarily wrong, it is the condescending, condemnatory way you are saying it. Don't be so harsh on your fellow Christians. That is not your job. Leave that to God.

    As you, yourself, stated, Jesus is compassionate and got to know people, but you are judging US without getting to know us and not using much compassion at all. All I hear is anger.

    Have you ever thought you just might be preaching to the choir?
     
  4. Dallasdid

    Dallasdid New Member

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    I apologize if it sounds like im cutting down people. I was at a church for long time that was legalistic. They thought if you did not dress like them and sing like them you were wrong. And that instance where they drove that kid away because he looked different that is my bottom line for this threat out rage at trying to take standerds and make them like they fell from heaven. Many of you might of seen the thread on the new teen Bible for girls called rave or something like that. Well the girls arms where showing and it seemed so many people made a big fuss over nothing and it was inane. That is also what I am talking about. I believe in modesty i do but then you tell a girl it is inmodest for her arms to be showing are for her to wear pants i dont get it. You can tell the difference between girl pants and guys so why make big deal about it people do. I knew that in the youth group i went to if a girl wears pants she gets reubuked. Infact they were so crazy they made the girls by guys shorts just so they would come below the knee. Again modesty is good but the line is there some where i swear if a girl had a robe on that covered her whole body and face people would still have something to say. Legalism does hurt a lot of the teens were so strangled by their heavenly standers they never cared what they had to say. The teens rebelled a lot of times because in legalism it is so strict that is what happens. I dont hate any one on this board i dont but i do hate legalism. I hate how we assume the worst in people. How we have this criteria of what a baptist girl and guy should look like and if they dont they must not be living for the Lord people are like that. I am tired of trying to continually change the out ward appearence and the inside is as bad as it gets. I am tired that we hell fire and brime stone evangelize people and it turns people away. Specially with certain groups that are into the heavy metal are punk rock stuff that i mean are covered in piercings they need to be shown love. You win them through love not pushing stuff down their throat Jesus did no shove stuff down their throat. Jesus loved them "let him who is perfect cast the first stone" if some one in the church did this today just think of how many people would be mad at him. We got pharisees running around and its a shame. That is all I am saying
     
  5. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Who do I condemn? You know nothing about me.

    Relax. Do you know why I put the [​IMG] icon? No, you don't, so let me tell you. I put it on because every so often someone spouts off about legalism, and stirs everyone into a flurry of activity - I've seen it so many times on this board that I feel I can sleep through most of these rants and not actually miss anything new. Your "I'm a teenager with a chip on my shoulder, and all you folks are going to hear about it!" ranting and raving, although at its core perhaps contains a valid point, makes me sleepy. [​IMG]

    Sounds like that's exactly what you're doing to others in this thread. You want everyone to conform what YOU think a Baptist should be. You're not speaking out against legalism, you're speaking out legalism that is different from your legalism. Well, I don't want their legalism, and I don't want your legalism either. [​IMG]
     
  6. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    If you ask the question, Do you believe in legalism? Most would say NO. Now if you ask, Do you believe in standards? Most would say YES.

    Let's look at the definitions:

    legalism.
    Function: noun
    Date: 1838
    1 : strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code <the institutionalized legalism that restricts free choice

    standard.
    Main Entry: 1stan·dard
    Pronunciation: 'stan-d&rd
    3 : something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example :
    4 : something set up and established by authority as a rule for the measure of quantity, weight, extent, value, or quality


    There is not much difference between the 2. The main difference is the use of the word "strict". In Christ we have liberty, but that liberty is not a license to do wrong. Doing wrong is going against the standards given to us in the bible. Why is there so much problem adhering to standards? The reason is simple. We are in a constant battle with the flesh. The flesh wants us to go against the standards and our hearts want to agree with them. Some accuse others of being legalist, but the fact is that we are all in a battle with the flesh.
     
  7. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Dallas, you have a (somewhat) strange sense of what Jesus did.

    Yes, Jesus went to people out of love; but look at what He actually did and said:

    John 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
    17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
    18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

    In today's society, do you think people would appreciate being told "You've had five husbands, and the man you're living with now is not your husband"? No one likes getting called out like that, do they?

    What did Jesus call the religious leaders that He went to out of love? "Hypocrites." "Vipers." You think they appreciated that?

    In Matthew 15, we find:
    22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
    23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
    26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
    27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
    28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

    He first ignored her, then compared her to a dog. In the end, He rewarded her faith. But do you think she appreciated being ignored, then compared to a dog?

    The adulterous woman. After the pharisees left, did Jesus say "it's okay now, you can leave, it's all over"? NO. He said, "Go and sin no more." You think in today's society people would appreciate being told "go and sin no more"?

    It's not legalism to tell people they're doing something wrong. It is legalism to tell people that if they don't dress in a suit and tie, they're going to hell.

    It's not legalism to tell people they should stop dressing to draw attention to themselves and/or their bodies. It is legalism to tell someone to stop dressing a certain way or they're going to hell.

    I, too, have been hurt by legalistic preachers. My "legalism" extends only to myself and my family. I will not tell you how to dress or act; I'll tell you what scripture says. However you dress or act after that is up to you.

    But the next time you say "Jesus went to them in love," remember how Jesus went to them: He told them straight up what they were doing wrong, and what they must do instead.

    And by the way, Dallas: When are you going to correct your scripture reference in your profile? Last time I checked, there wasn't a verse 23 in Romans 10.
     
  8. Dallasdid

    Dallasdid New Member

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    Jesus showed love to the people who no one wanted any part of that is my point. There is a generation of teens and college kids people reject because "there too lost" are silly reasons. And we need to reach them it wont be through going u must drss this way and look this way that wont do any thing for them. That is a lot of my point.
     
  9. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    To Dallasdid:

    I appreciate your frustration, but I would entreat you not to get mired in the sin of legalism.

    From my personal experience, here are some warning signs of legalism:

    1. The Great Commission somehow undergoes a metamorphosis to become a competition.

    2. Compliments to fellow Believers are always "back-handed" [sic] in nature.

    3. Gossip is repackaged as "identifying sin in the Congregation."

    4. Other Bible-believing Congregations in the area are verbally attacked for innocuous differences.

    5. Unscriptural beliefs are held out as doctrine.

    6. Every word, deed and action lacks the true Joy that is found in the Grace of God.

    The best advice I could possibly offer is to avoid them. Find a Bible-believing Congregation that exhibits the Grace found in the Love of Christ. [​IMG]
     
  10. showard93

    showard93 New Member

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    oh my goodness I am not sure where to start but I do think Dallas sounds angry. I will however say that I have also met people that seem to judge you before they know you and that isn't right but if you call yourself a christian then I think you should act like one. Let me explain my pastor goes to the neighborhoods that look like they are fallinmg apart and invites those kinds of people to church because he said most rich people don't think they need the Lord....Anyway thats not part of my explanation, I do know of some instances where people came in looking dirty; men with long hair, tatoos etc.... I have saw these men fet saved and clean-up and not over night and not because people were judging them but because Christ lived in them and they were new people. I do think a christian should change when they get saved but people do grow at different rates but thats why we need preachers with a backbone that will preach it straight and not compromise.

    Also as far as wearing 3 piece suits I do think that looks better but I don't think it is a requirement for going to church but I do think you should wear your very best. Some people will have different standard than you do but that is okay. My Pastor will not go to any restaraunt that serves alochol but we do. That is his preference but he doesn't think he is better than us because we do. I hope all this makes sence.
     
  11. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    One of the most frequent and mistaken complaints that people make against religion is that it is too restrictive. In this permissive age when all the emphasis seems to be upon "doing your own thing," an unreasonable attitude of self-will has developed. This attitude has even intruded into religion. Church members and non-members seem to be in quest of the same thing: a religion which does not interfere with personal rights and freedom. Suspicion is aroused instantly against any doctrine which demands the "giving up" of anything.

    As this liberal spirit has grown stronger, many church members have turned more and more critical of the high spiritual standards upheld by the church. Obviously embarrassed by the widening gap between the church and the world, and unwilling to meet the social stigma of being a "peculiar" minority, these members have sought to justify their compromise in the area of Christian standards. They often argue that the church is being narrow and legalistic and that many fine people are being discouraged from joining the church by this "arbitrary imposition of rules."
     
  12. Dallasdid

    Dallasdid New Member

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    wow man you summed it all up in one message hey you must know every thing hey i got this math homework i really need the answers for can u help me? u should write a book to make millions lol
     
  13. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Well, let's see: Based on the maturity level of that last post, Dallas, I think I can help you with the same level of math:

    2 + 2 = 4
     
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Simple way to spot legalism

    High spiritual standards based upon the Word of God and taught and practiced in His church? OK

    High spiritual standards based upon the mores and culture or warped interpretation of the Word of God and forced upon everyone in His church? Not

    We had better learn to live by the same grace that saved us. THAT is what is so amazing about Grace.
     
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