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Let the Dems defeat Alito

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by church mouse guy, Jan 11, 2006.

  1. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I believe the Puritans tried that a few hundred years ago. It led to the deaths of many innocent people who were labelled by the courts of law as witches. </font>[/QUOTE]I am not calling for a theocracy. Nor do I wish to debate the fact that the Puritans themselves stopped the execution of the witches.

    Natural law, which was claimed to be a product of Catholicism, says that everyone, even people like Osama Bin Laden, have God's laws written on their hearts and that OBL knows that it is wrong to cut people's heads off and it is wrong to blow up office towers in downtown New York City. However, the natural law does not stop OBL from what he is doing because he seems to like cutting people's heads off and he has the power and money to do as he wishes to some extent.

    So in order to stop human rights abuse, and the 20th century was the bloodiest and cruelest century in human history, we need something more than natural law. OBL would not agree that he has God's laws written on his conscience because long ago he hardened his conscience so that it clearly no longer bothers him in his quest for world dominion in the name of Allah.

    The only thing clearer than human law and natural law is Christian law. There it says that thou shalt not murder. Using thou shalt not murder as a standard, we can act to stop OBL from additional murders and to punish him for his acts. We do not have to rely on his now-silenced conscience. Yet we have a clear God-given standard of law on which to base our society. Nor do we have to go by the pronouncements of the Pope, who speaking ex cathedra as the "monarch" of the Vatican can overrule Scripture with notions such as the one that the Virgin Mary ascended into Heaven. In Protestantism, the Scripture is the highest authority.
     
  2. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    stray bullet,

    I wouldn't presume to challenge your understanding and knowledge of the theological issues involved, such as universalism, but just a few thoughts:

    Oddly enough, our Constitution was based largely on Natural Law, a belief in fundamental human rights developed by the Catholic Church. These principles were contradictory to the institution of slavery being practiced in the south, which was and is, predominantly baptist.

    We perhaps differ on the level of connection between natural law and the Constitution. I don't believe it is based directly on it and differ strongly from Hadley Arkes (Beyond the Constitution), a conservative natural rights scholar on that. The Founders, as you know, were overwhelmingly Protestant which, to me, means that their reliance on natural law is quite indirect. I am a recent student, and a decided fan, of natural law and greatly admire the Catholic Church for its contributions to that concept but I believe we have to be careful how much we import that philosophy (or believe the Framers did so) into the Constitution.

    It's not that the death penalty is wrong, but that most applications of it are necessary and contrary to Christian principles. Let he who is without sin pull the first switch...

    I am curious, myself, as to early Catholic views on the death penalty and the development of that position in natural law debate.

    The Catholic Church is also the dominant Church in many European countries where the birth rate is very low.

    I disagree with you on this. I believe that the birth rate's decline in Europe also at least loosely parallels the growing secularization there.

    The Catholic Church supports Separation of Church and state as defined by our Forefathers- not establishing a government supported Church.

    Though I strongly disagree with CMG on the Catholic Church, I think history makes clear that Rome's move in that direction is a relatively recent development.

    Catholics are not pawns of the Pope. These sorts of arguments have been made ever since the first Catholic came to the US and guess what, it's never come true. A basic understanding of Catholic doctrine would show that having Catholic officials and judges is not a concern- they can not be pawns of the Pope.

    You're absolutely right. JFK is the obvious evidence of this, but I believe that Scalia is too, if you read his decisions. And, on that point, I am curious of CMG's view of Scalia and basis for that view.
     
  3. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I think that a good Catholic would be subject to the views of the Pope. American Catholics are not necessarily very strong believers.
     
  4. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    But, CMG, at least the examples given were and are not pawns of the Pope.
     
  5. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    JFK was not a good Catholic--his private life was like FDR or Clinton. As for Scalia, I don't know. My main objection is that the GOP has given too many spoils to a group only recently Republican in that the majority of the court is now Catholic, assuming that Alito is a shoo-in.

    Natural law fell into disuse in the 19th century, replaced by the theory that whatever the supreme power said that the law was that was the law--the king was the law. This was overthrown also at the end of World War II because it was the defense of the Germans who rightly pointed out that their law made everything that they had done legal beforehand. Clearly, man needs another foundation for his laws.

    Natural law was founding wanting in the 20th century by its inability to check either nazis or communists. FTR, should we say that natural law also failed in the USA because there seems to be no conscience in the American people about the abortion of tens of millions of people? It is time to build a new foundation for what is right and what is wrong and the new foundation should be The Holy Bible.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    We can't have a theocracy in the U.S., cmg. That would be unconstitutional. Also, we see how awful theocracies such as Iran are to live in.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Clinton: A Southern Baptist. Because of Clinton, I argue that no Southern Baptist should be a leader.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    CMG,

    Natural law fell into disuse in the 19th century, replaced by the theory that whatever the supreme power said that the law was that was the law--the king was the law. This was overthrown also at the end of World War II because it was the defense of the Germans who rightly pointed out that their law made everything that they had done legal beforehand. Clearly, man needs another foundation for his laws.

    I would argue that the Nazi argument was overthrown by the law of nations, which itself is largely rooted in natural law, which is also the basis of just war theory.

    FTR, should we say that natural law also failed in the USA because there seems to be no conscience in the American people about the abortion of tens of millions of people?

    Definitely. But I disagree with the wording. Natural law didn't fail any more than the words of the Bible failed--imperfect and sinful man failed to live up the standards of both. BTW, I believe strongly that natural law is itself Biblical in Paul's "law written on the heart".


    JB,

    Clinton: A Southern Baptist. Because of Clinton, I argue that no Southern Baptist should be a leader.

    WADR to both you and CMG, I don't think that is his point but rather that JFK was not a good Catholic and so is not a good example to use in making the argument that he was not a pawn of the Pope. But I certainly defer to CMG's explanation of what he meant. If I am correct, my answer to CMG, is that JFK was but imperfect man; in addition, that doesn't answer the other example I raised of Scalia who is arguably a more solid Catholic (though the reasoning used in some of his decisions have raised a few Christian hackles).
     
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Not calling for a theocracy, Ken. I am calling for a legal system based upon The Holy Bible. The current legal system cannot cope with the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled that a woman's right to privacy in the Constitution allows her to abort, or kill, her unborn child.

    We have judges saying that a fetus, the Latin word for the unborn child, is not a human being. And we have Democrats saying that the Supreme Court has the power to legalize abortion.

    That is because our law is in essence whatever the court says that it is. The problem with natural law is that the abortionist has a deadened conscience. He probably says that he likes his work and that he is doing good for society. He certainly is getting rich.

    Therefore, the law must be based upon the Christian concept that thou shalt not murder. When it comes to determining what Christianity teaches, i think that Protestants are more reliable than Catholics because of the corruption of Catholic doctrine as evidenced by such notions as the ascension of Mary into Heaven or even the immaculate conception of Mary, which makes her not a sinner and without an Adamic nature. I don't even think Eastern Orthodox has corrupted The Holy Bible that much.
     
  10. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    CMG,

    I am calling for a legal system based upon The Holy Bible.

    How would you do that? It would require an amendment to the Constitution because there is certainly nothing in the Constitution which explicitly states this. To argue it is implicit begs the questions: Implied by whom/what? In what text is the implication made?

    The current legal system cannot cope with the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled that a woman's right to privacy in the Constitution allows her to abort, or kill, her unborn child.

    Certainly it can cope, though it hasn't done so immediately for sure. It can cope in the sense of the Constitutional system that put abortion there in the first place--having a population which properly understands the Constitution in the first place well enough to know how wrong Roe and abortion are. For the long term, it will require both enough Justices to restore the law ante-Roe and a broad understanding by the electorate of federalism and the immorality of abortion.

    The problem with natural law is that the abortionist has a deadened conscience.

    How is the abortionist's deadened conscience the fault of natural law, which is rooted in the understanding that man is sinful? I didn't say that natural law is all there is. In a proper system of federalism, states have the right to decide on the question of taking of human life and punishment for same. This is a matter of Constitutional framework.

    Therefore, the law must be based upon the Christian concept that thou shalt not murder.

    Certainly a component of natural law, also.
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    What does this mean?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  12. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    With all due respect.
     
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Oh. Ok. [​IMG]

    I was actually making a somewhat sarcastic point that catholics are not the only ones with immoral leaders in their past. We certainly had some who came from a Southern Baptist background.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  14. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    CMG,

    American Catholics are not necessarily very strong believers.

    So why worry?
     
  15. hillclimber

    hillclimber New Member

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    I'd rather have a "good" Roman Catholic on the court than a Clinton type hedonist. At least the Catholic probably would have a more positive set of values.
     
  16. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    So, do you really think he would vote to repeal Roe v. Wade, especially from that "vantage point?" He really didn't give a clear answer on that now, did he? Amazing that he would not do that, especially given the support he is receiving from those who seek to repeal that decision. Since he is most likely going to be confirmed, why wouldn't he be clear as to his position?

    Regards,
    BiR
    </font>[/QUOTE]Eventually, yes I do. All we need is for one more liberal pro-death justice to retire while Bush is president and we will tip the balance of the court toward life and end the American Holocaust. Until that day happens, I am confident that he will also chip away at the availability and permissiveness of state sanctioned infanticide. I do have a litmus test for the civil rights of the unborn and I am not ashamed to say so.</font>[/QUOTE]It ain't gonna happen, Joseph[sic].

    What makes you think that he is going to do this? He sure hasn't indicated it in his testimony. Unless, of course, you go by what he has written in the past. Then at least one of the following is true:

    1. He is not being forthright with the Senate Judiciary Committee.
    2. He is not being forthright with those who seek to see him on the Supreme Court.

    Regards,
    BiR (finally back in Richmond)
     
  17. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Natural law has disappeared as a legal system. It is true that the law is written on the heart but it can be deadened by an individual. We don't see the law against murder bothering the conscience of Islamofascists for example. We can't say to Osama Bin Laden that he knows that it is wrong because he will say that not under Islam and that he himself sees nothing wrong and he likes what he does. Natural law does not restrain him because sin has the ability to deaden the conscience.

    Nor can we make the law whatever the king says it is. That failed in Germany and Russia, for example.

    So we need a new system to judge right and wrong because human beings by themselves do not know right and wrong.

    The Supreme Court has ruled that the murder of the unborn baby is legal because there is a right to privacy in the US Constitution that gives a woman the right to choose.

    The US Constitution has been described as all sail and no anchor. This lack of an anchor has caused many bad decisions over the years as the judged have grabbed for political power. Could we agree that the Dred Scott decision was the first national notice of the problem on the Supreme Court that we are still trying to address today?

    I think that we started in the right direction when we noted that everyone was given rights by God. We should openly use God's law to correct our own law is all that I am saying. In other words, abortion is wrong but the abortionist is not responding to natural law and the command of the king has allowed abortion so we can only turn to God's law and state thou shalt not murder. It comes from God, not man. Only reference to The Holy Bible can solve the problems of our legal system.
     
  18. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    cmg
    "how can one effect social improvement and defeat human rights abuse in a legal system that is tied to Vatican concepts of justice?"
    "
    How strange, a number of the countries I referred to earlier seem to have managed.
     
  19. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Well, Mioque, religion does matter. What if Bush had nominated a Mormon to the court?
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    What of Bush had nominated a Southern Baptist like Bill Clinton to the court? What is that you say? Clinton does not represent the political or even theological views of all Southern Baptists, and therefore, we cannot hold him against all Southern Baptists? How about Jimmy Carter? Not him either? How about ...

    BTW,

    If the Mormon was a pro life conservative, I would much rather have him on the court than either of the Southern Baptists listed above. The same is true of Alito.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
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