Let's HANG Mel Gibson!

Sharp---another question left unanswered by the movie embracers is---putting up with that sort of beating as the movie depicted---how long would it had taken before Shock set in?? Someone with such beatings would have either bled to death or died of shock where the beatings took place!

 

Hello Blackbird,

I believe you are right. I have friends who work first response to accidents, and if people are not taken care of when they go into shock...well...

Pleased to meet you btw. I noticed you are part of the "3000 Posts Club". That must mean you "talk" a lot?

 

Hmmmmmm...

"In the movie he was being cut to the bone. Arteries are above that."

&

"The Catholic gospel includes the crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven, and her as co-redeemer, which is also in those writings of the nuns."

Bro Sharp Sword you are neither an expert in human anatomy nor official catholic doctrine!

He was cut to the bone in the left rib area - the intercostal arteries lie in protected grooves under the ribs.

The catholic bible does not contain any such things. And to which "nun writings" do you refer?

The point is the movie is a movie. It very clearly depicts Jesus as divine and as having risen. It also depicts what he chose to go through for us. Would you prefer a Jesus who uttered a few pithy maxims with a monotone British accent? - and who didn't really suffer excruciating pain?

To this Baptist all this complaining seems like just another example of the human tendency to be judgmental regarding anything that is remotely different than we are. Now if the movie advocated no bodily resurrection, or no death for sins then none of us would defend it!

 

CM:

Bro Sharp Sword you are neither an expert in human anatomy nor official catholic doctrine!


S&T:

I am not sure what your training entailed, but my understanding is in the area of efficient elimination of an adversary. In the front of the body there are zones that you can bleed out an opponent quite quickly.There are pulmonary arteries and veins that are accessable in the groin area, as well as access areas in the crotch of the arm and at the base of the wrist, not to mention the arteries that are available in the neck area. Except for an area behing the knees, the back is a relatively protected area to take a beating. That is not to say that the chance of enough blood loss occuring to eliminate someone from a scourging on the back is not possible.

[ March 21, 2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Spirit and Truth ]

 

Spirit and Truth:

Pulmonary veins in the groin???

There are areas on the front of the body where a well placed wound could cause exsanguination. The anteriolaterl neck (carotid artery and internal jugular vein). The femoral vein )groin)would be extremely hard to hit as it lies in the inguinal crease. It would still be a matter of chance as to whether any of these would be exposed by even a severe frontal scourging.

The point is this: There are planty of stodgy judgmental people who are going to be "against" the film if for no other reason than it was made by a "papist". This thing about a frontal scourging being too lethal is bogus - and has been contrived only in an attempt to discredit the film. I am not a "papist" but I was quite blessed - as were MANY Christians.

 

pulmonary was a mis-speak, but as you may know, with the elevated blood pressure and heart rate associated with pain caused by a beating, even the area on the tops of your feet can cause substantial blood loss, and coupled with the added fact that he would be standing. Also, in Anne Errerich's writings, she said that by direct revelation, Jesus had almost 5500 wounds. If you took a one inch knife and stabbed someone 5500 times, what would be their chance of survival.

 

When I said Emmerich I meant St Bridgit. Mary of Agreda's number was considerably less. Too much multi tasking going on.

 

Consider that most blows with a whip or even a "cat o' nine tails" would be glancing - not at all the equivalent of plunging a knife in. And Jesus did die fairly quickly - even Pilate was surprised to hear that He had expired so soon.

And even if Mel was some influenced some by Bridgitte or Anne Emmerich so what? Like I said if this were an antibiblical movie, or just a lousy one (Last Temptation of Christ) then I would not be defending it. My only complaint would be that it didn't show His glorious resurrection!

 

Charles you said "...you are neither an expert in human anatomy nor official catholic doctrine!"

I am afraid you don't know what I know about the human body. I know that the Bible said Jesus gave HIS Back to the smiters....not His front. If you have Scripture that says otherwise, now would be the time to present it. Also the Scripture about the canings on His back, please...and the dangling him off the bridge....

You said> The catholic bible does not contain any such things. And to which "nun writings" do you refer? "

Anne Emmerich--stigmatic who levitated, Mary of Agreda whose last chapter Is about the Coronation of the Queen of Heaven...and St. Bridget of Sweden,...mel Gibson got his understanding of the passion when he was 35, when he started praying Bridget's 15 anti-semetic prayers. All documented and ...she has tribute paid her by the Pope and in the Rome church. And your buddy mel said he used their writings.

Catholic Bible???...I never said a word about the catholic bible....I said the catholic gospel...which includes another Jesus and a co-redeemer in mary...who is viewed as sinless. According to catholic doctrine she stands at the right hand of Christ...
Do you have the Scripture for that?

Here's the official "Rome" position on Mother Mary:

Zenit>Mary was taken body and soul to heaven, she was sinless, is co-redeemer and stands at the right hand of Christ. 

Zenit News Agency; Code: ZE02060101; Date: 2002-06-01, VATICAN CITY, JUNE 1, 2002, Papal Theologian Views Mary in Salvific History; The Sense in Which She Is Co-redeemer ; http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=21475

"...She ... was united with him by compassion as he died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace" (No. 61). "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." For this reason "the Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix" (No. 62). 

Re:the Liturgy, and Marian feasts:

"...True devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary can be summed up in the phrase: "To Jesus through Mary." It is therefore fitting that Marian feasts are celebrated by the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In this way Marian Devotion leads directly and clearly to Christ, the second person of the Blessed Trinity as should always be the case with true Marian devotion

...after Mary consented to become the Mother of God ....

Pope Pius XII, on 1 November 1950, in Munificentissimus Deus officially defined the doctrine of the Assumption as an article of the Catholic Faith. He stated:
". . . By the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by Our Own authority, We pronounce, declare, and define as divinely revealed dogma: The Immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever Virgin,..."Since death is the punishment for sin, it might have seemed proper that the Divine Mother should have been exempt from it. But it pleased God to have Mary resemble Jesus in all things,...

...Pope Pius IX said of Mary: "Turning her maternal Heart toward us and dealing with the affair of our salvation, she is concerned with the whole human race. Constituted by the Lord Queen of Heaven and earth, and exalted above all choirs of Angels and the ranks of Saints in Heaven, standing at the right hand of Her only-begotten Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, she petitions most powerfully with Her maternal prayers, and she obtains what she seeks."...
http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/FEAST.TXT

You know the stuff that mary is just like Jesus, and sinless....that's against Scripture.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Here's the Mary Agreda statements about Mary..."The Holy Ghost said: "Since She is called my beloved and chosen Spouse, She deserves to be crowned as Queen for all eternity."...the three divine Persons placed upon the head of the most blessed Mary a crown....yet now, when She was in possession of the kingdom, it was just, that She should be venerated, worshipped and extolled by them as her inferiors and vassals. This they also did in that most blessed state, in which all things are reduced to their proper proportion and order. Both the angelic spirits and the blessed souls, while rendering their adoration to the Lord with fear and worshipful reverence, rendered a like homage in its proportion to His most blessed Mother; and the saints who were there in their bodies prostrated themselves and gave bodily signs of their worship... "
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/7194/book8c8.html

Welcome to Mel's world, Charles.

You said >"The point is this: There are planty of stodgy judgmental people who are going to be "against" the film if for no other reason than it was made by a "papist". "

You never answered my questions from before. Do you agree with the above theology? Are you a "Catholic" Baptist?

You said >The point is the movie is a movie. It very clearly depicts Jesus as divine and as having risen. It also depicts what he chose to go through for us."

No it doesn't. It's quite simple. People like yourself call it Scripturally accurate--therefore it has to stand the test of that Scripture.

The Jesus in the movie was afraid and weak. Fear is a sin. Perfect love casts out fear. If Jesus feared, He sinned, therefore that Jesus was not depicted as divine and is no longer the perfect sacrifice. If He was no longer the perfect sacrifice,the work of the cross is no longer depicted. Just a gory brutal beating and crucifixion of a weak and terrified man who got strength from his mom.

Jesus consistently taught to never fear those who could kill the body. The God I know is without hypocrisy.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

sharpSword, it's DR. Charles Meadows, M.D.

quote:
I am afraid you don't know what I know about the human body.

Me thinks he does.

Diane

 

Hey Diane,

Nice to see you again. Is it getting boring without us over there on the warm and fuzzy thread?

 

Well, hello there Diane. Thank you for that interesting bit of trivia. However, it makes no difference on the Scriptural truth of the scenes, the questions asked and not answered about the movie, does it? Inclduing the catholic doctrine through out the movie. And that is only one opinion.

Here's some others.
http://www.geocities.com/alokonsen/scourge.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/alokonsen/death3.htm

 

No way S and T!

sharpSword, It DOES matter because YOU said Dr. Charles Meadows, MD doesn't know as much about human anatomy or the human body as YOU DO. That's just not true, unless you're some great physician and just haven't bothered to share that with us.

Diane

 

Diane:

No way S and T!

S&T:

I am having a hard time feeling the Christian love ....

Diane:

sharpSword, It DOES matter because YOU said Dr. Charles Meadows, MD doesn't know as much about human anatomy or the human body as YOU DO. That's just not true, unless you're some great physician and just haven't bothered to share that with us.

S&T:

I didn't get that from SS statement Diane. They had an opinion, that is all. The condescention is probably not the best way to greet a new member of the forum. People accuse me of being tough, you being one Diane, but now you are lashing out. Just my opinion.

 

Diane you said "sharpSword, It DOES matter because YOU said Dr. Charles Meadows, MD doesn't know as much about human anatomy or the human body as YOU DO. That's just not true, unless you're some great physician and just haven't bothered to share that with us."

Actually Diane. I said nothing of the sort. He in fact said to me, "Bro Sharp Sword you are neither an expert in human anatomy nor official catholic doctrine!"

I merely stated in my response, and I quote: " I am afraid you don't know what I know about the human body. I know that the Bible said Jesus gave HIS Back to the smiters....not His front. If you have Scripture that says otherwise, now would be the time to present it. Also the Scripture about the canings on His back, please...and the dangling him off the bridge...."

Since no one knows what I know about anatomy, it is inappropriate to say I know nothing about it. I also posted alternate information from a well respected medical magazine [JAMA] with medical information about the scourging and crucifixion from a historical and medical perspective... Is that an issue for you?

 

Sharp Sword,

Do you deny Christ was human? Did He not come in the flesh (that means OUR flesh)? Are you familiar with the term "docetism"? You'll notice that I am a Baptist (not a Catholic) but I do know the position of the Church fairly well through study and Catholic friends. The position of the Church is that Mary was immediately cleansed of original sin so that she would be fit to carry Jesus. Scriptural? No. I never claimed it was that. Damnable doctrine? No, just the opinion of some men.

Really, do you think Jesus didn't fear His death? didn't dread it? Did He not sweat blood just thinking about it? If He didn't experience (to a certain extent) our human frailties how was His death a sacrifice?

Again - I think it was a great movie. I've seen the effect it had on lots of people! Don't let yourself fall into the same cold legalism exhibited by the Pharisees!!

 

Dr. Charles said: Really, do you think Jesus didn't fear His death? didn't dread it? Did He not sweat blood just thinking about it? If He didn't experience (to a certain extent) our human frailties how was His death a sacrifice?

`````````````````````````
I agree!

Isaiah 53:4-9
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked-- But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

``````````````````````````
Hematidrosis, or bloody sweat, is well documented. Under great emotional stress of the kind our Lord suffered, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can break, thus mixing blood with sweat. This process might well have produced marked weakness and possible shock.

 

Diane:

Hematidrosis, or bloody sweat, is well documented. Under great emotional stress of the kind our Lord suffered, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can break, thus mixing blood with sweat. This process might well have produced marked weakness and possible shock.

S&T:

I agree that this is a posibility, due to adrenaline release causing elevated blood pressure that would stress the capillaries, but this has been questioned in the past because of the way it is written in the Greek:


hosei {ho-si'}
TDNT Reference
Root Word
Not Available from 5613 and 1487
Part of Speech
adv
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) as it were, (had been), as though, as, like as, like
2) about, nearly
a) before numerals
b) before a measure of time

 

Charles you said "Do you deny Christ was human?"

To be honest, if it wasn't that I know you are dead serious and avoiding answering all the questions I put to you, I would be laughing out loud.

Jesus was invigorated in the Garden by an angel. He was given supernatural stengthening to endure the following hours, because of His flesh. Unless you can provide Scripture to back up the catholic doctrine, it is heresy and of no interest to me.

You said "Really, do you think Jesus didn't fear His death? didn't dread it? Did He not sweat blood just thinking about it? If He didn't experience (to a certain extent) our human frailties how was His death a sacrifice? "

Did you not read the Scriptures about Fear being a Sin and Jesus being sinless...even though He was fully man? Did you miss that?
He did not fear. To fear would be to sin. To sin would mean He would no longer be the perfect sacrifice and Scriptures would be overthrown.

Was He sinless Charles?...because if you think that He feared, you are saying He sinned and is no longer Divine. Was He tempted to fear?...He knows.

If He truly is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, before Abraham, I AM, then there were no suprises...what would He fear? The Scriptures say He allowed it all to be done--He went willingly. What He felt you do not know. What we do know....He did not Sin. Therefore He did not commit the sin of unbelief and fear.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin , neither was guile found in his mouth:

You said "The position of the Church is that Mary was immediately cleansed of original sin so that she would be fit to carry Jesus. Scriptural? No. I never claimed it was that. Damnable doctrine? No, just the opinion of some men. "

Just the opinion of men and not damnable doctrine, Charles? And all the Official Catholic doctrine about her being worshipped? That isn't an issue? Let's see what the Word of God says about that.

1 John 2:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 Kings 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2 Chron 6:36 "36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,)...

Doctrine which goes in violation to the Word of God is heresy and false teaching.

You said "Don't let yourself fall into the same cold legalism exhibited by the Pharisees!! "

No worry there Charles. The sin of the Pharisees was hypocrisy and contradicting what the Word of God says. A little leaven....

 

Sharpsword saith:

"He did not fear. To fear would be to sin. To sin would mean He would no longer be the perfect sacrifice and Scriptures would be overthrown. "

The sin comes in by not trusting God - not by having fear itself. Weakness is human. Since you mention the medical thing I'll use this example. I've performed a good number of deep venous lines and spinal taps on AIDS and hepatitis patients. Am I afraid here? Maybe a little sometimes. Is it sinful to have fear? No, what the bible indicates is sin is to not trust that God will take care of me! Your insistence on the literal word here robs you of its meaning!

Consider this: What sacrifice would it have been for Jesus to have come here and not felt our pain? Did He simply turn on the "God switch" on the cross and wait for three hours? I don't think so!

And by the way catholics neither worship Mary nor consider on an equal level with Christ.

Regarding your questions (I think that's to what you were referring):

No I don't believe the Emmerich stuff.
No I don't believe Mary is "Co-redemptrix".
No I do not believe she is "queen of heaven".