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Let's see SCRIPTURAL authority for popes, cardinals, etc.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by robycop3, Aug 10, 2019.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    this thread is in response to Utilyan's saying he has Scriptural support to the RC garbage in their silly "church".

    OK, let's do them one at a time. RCs, please show us Scriptural support for the office of pope.
     
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Pope is title of endearment, like papa, pops, Father the official office is Bishop of Rome.

    Peter was first given this office, Holding the keys of kingdom is custom of his position. You'll see the Pope's crest is the keys. He has the authority to BIND AND LOOSE.

    Matthew 16
    . 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

    You have cardinals you just don't call them cardinals. You don't have to be priest to be a cardinal.

    For example if a church(not catholic) has a general conference of elected representatives the would be cardinals, or if they were of importance bu from a different diocese/location.

    When your pastor MINI-POPE passes away, what do you do? possibily a commitee, governing group by whatever name you want to call them.....thats your cardinals. get together to replace him.

    I'm Glad you asked about the Pope here is a special line repeated two or three times in scripture is capacity to bind and loose.

    Mathew 16
    19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

    Matthew 18
    18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

    John 20
    21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”


    We wouldn't debate anything the church does if people didn't sweep these verses under the rug.

    I want you to explain me what is this capacity to BIND AND LOOSE means.

    I want to you explain to me what this capacity to FORGIVE and RETAIN sins.


    Your biggest problem is right here. Because if I got the keys, I got the power to bind and loose, I make the call if something is forgiven or not. How does that equate to not being able to bind anything at all?

    The CHURCH can get together and decide on the HOLY DAY OF TACO TUESDAY. If you eat a TACO on TUESDAY, all your sins are forgiven.

    Sounds ridiculous right? That is absolutely within the power of BIND, loosing, forgiving and retaining. The Church CAN actually do this.

    You have to destroy the idea that the church has no authority whatsoever. Break these verses.

    Here's the real kicker. We do it because Jesus gave us the authority to do it , JUST like scripture reports.

    We don't do it BECAUSE of SCRIPTURE. Scripture didn't RATIFY our authority, Jesus CHRIST gave us authority.

    We are not looking at Christianity like some fairy tale reading a bible comic saying to ourselves, wouldn't it be neat if we can be like those guys. Maybe if we put a job application in and try hard enough God will call us his church.

    NO the the bible is our baby pictures, WE ARE those guys, period. We were around BEFORE the bible existed, we wrote the bible. We were started by Jesus Christ.

    Not some guy who left another group who left another group who left another group who left us.

    Jesus Christ teaches when someone sins confront them, if they don't listen, take it to the scriptures? NO. Take it to the church. But when the loser of the issue in this case sin of false doctrine lost in the committee of the church decides well then i'm just going to leave then, this is why you have multiple denominations one for every disagreement a fellah had with his previous church.

    Now i've been to baptists churches, I even attend the weekday bible study nights where you get the craziest pseudo history and complete misrepresentation of every faith that is not your own. Buddhist are cannibals, Muslims are pagans, Jehovah's witness are devil worshipers. I've heard it all.

    Brother you don't ask a Nazi what Jews believe. Understand the concept of bias.

    Cause you are going to get a story like Catholics didn't exist till Constantine, except they don't tell you Constantine did convert deathbed-like to Christianity but it wasn't catholic, it was Arias.

    Your not told that we were the underdogs in Christianity and that Athanasius of Alexandria was the one holding on to TRINITY which other Christians denied.

    He was even known as Athanasius Against the World. We hung by a thread, this guy got exiled plenty of times its a miracle he lived.

    No one pops up in the history books in 400 ad saying.....hold on who are these NEW heretics the CATHOLICS.
    But there is an account for all the other heresies and sects popping up.

    Everytime a new group popped up there was always some fighting, debates and news about it. Gnostics here, Donatist here.

    You never hear about some guys reporting wait who are these new folks...the catholics.
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    But where does Scripture Peter passed the keys on to anyone else? Seems that's a man-made tale. GOD would hafta have passed on those keys ! And there's no Scripture saying he did !And if Peter was pope, he didn't know it, as the RCC didn't exist then.

    "Pope" is just a man-made office that MEN conferred upon the bishops of Rome.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Just like when they replaced Judas if the office was open it got filled.

    Your still not dealing with your bigger problem of issuing to the church in general the capacity to bind and loose and forgive and retain sins.

    I want your input on this BIND AND LOOSE, FORGIVE AND RETAIN SINS.

    We can't keep sweeping this under the rug.


    If I go to you, hey roby, can you forgive my sins? You are going to tell me no you can't only Jesus can forgive your sins.

    But that is not what Jesus said. He told his church whatever sins YOU FORGIVE they are forgiven.

    In other words you can't accept the MEANS by which Jesus chooses to forgive. He plainly delegates the authority to the church.
     
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Loraine Boettner wrote: "in the Greek the word Peter is Petros, a person, masculine, while the word 'rock,' petra, is feminine and refers not to a person but to the declaration of Christ's deity that Peter had just uttered--'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'" (Roman Catholicism, p. 105).

    Boettner observed: "Had Christ intended to say that the Church would be founded on Peter, it would have been ridiculous for Him to have shifted to the feminine form of the word in the middle of the statement" (p. 106).

    Boettner noted: "If Matthew 16:18 had been intended to teach that the church is founded on Peter, it would have read something like this: 'Thou art Peter, and upon you I will build my church'; or, 'Thou art Peter, and upon you the rock I will build my church.' But that is not what Christ said." (p. 106).

    Boettner claimed: "It is interesting to notice that some of the church fathers, Augustine and Jerome among them, gave the Protestant explanation of this verse, understanding the 'rock' to mean not Peter but Christ" (p. 108).

    Would the non-unanimous Roman Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 also conflict with Ephesians 2:20 and other scriptural passages?

    Ephesians 2:20
    And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

    Boettner noted: "The other apostles as well as Paul seem totally unaware of any appointment that made Peter head of the Church. Nowhere do they acknowledge his authority. And nowhere does he attempt to exercise authority over them" (p. 115).

    The authority supposedly given exclusively to Peter was also given to all the apostles as evident in Matthew 18:1, 15-18
     
    #5 Logos1560, Aug 12, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
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  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No, Jesus did NOT delegate His authority to forgive sins to the church!. No passage of Scripture is to be interpreted as to be in conflict with other passages, & there are MANY that say GOD ALONE can forgive sins against Him.

    While WE can forgive one who wrongs US, we CANNOT forgive anyone for sinning against GOD. But, if a known sinner repents & comes to Jesus, we must assume his/her sins are forgiven by Jesus.

    But, for the sake of discussion, let's say Jesus actually DID allow the apostles to forgive sins. Fine & dandy, til they died. There's NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE sayingany of the apostles would be succeeded by another who'd then become an apostle. Matthias was chosen to replace Judas so there'd be 12 apostles. And, he'd been in them group since the beginning/.

    And you're still avoiding my question about Scriptural authority for a pope. The RC men declared that the Bishop of Rome is pope, not SCRIPTURE.

    You've got a LO-O-ONG way to go to justify the office of pope, apostolic succession, or the power of the RC to forgive sin !
     
  7. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Does erroneous Roman Catholic reasoning suggest that the scribes and Pharisees had authority over the church or over people since they were able to take away the key of knowledge (Luke 11:52) and since they could shut the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 23:13)?

    Roman Catholics are avoiding and ignoring many other verses of Scriptures that would conflict with or contradict their incorrect interpretations.
     
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  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 23

    1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.



    therefore all that they tell you, do and observe,
    therefore all that they tell you, do and observe,
    therefore all that they tell you, do and observe,
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "No, Jesus did NOT delegate His authority to forgive sins to the church!. No passage of Scripture is to be interpreted as to be in conflict with other passages, & there are MANY that say GOD ALONE can forgive sins against Him."

    Thank you for proving my point.

    You are sweeping it under the rug!

    I am telling YOU to tell us what it means, You don't want to touch with a 10ft pole.

    I want your input on this BIND AND LOOSE, FORGIVE AND RETAIN SINS.


    By virtue of being given authority from Jesus THE CHURCH can make any rule it wants.

    You have one easy job and are failing miserably.

    Tell us what it means.. BIND AND LOOSE, FORGIVE AND RETAIN SINS.
     
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  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    utilyan, post:pope is title of endearment, like papa, pops, Father the official office is Bishop of Rome.

    (Canadyjd response: The term Pontifus-spelling?- Maximus referred to the pagan high priest in Rome and meant the high priest of all the pagan gods. After Constantined died, the bishop at Rome took the title for himself and forged a will claiming Constantine left all authority to the Bishop at Rome.

    Additionally, Jesus clearly stated we are to call no man on earth our father since God is our Father. Calling any religious leader "father" is a direct violation of the command of Jesus)

    Peter was first given this office,

    (Canadyjd response: The title 'pope' wasn't taken until the 5th century, after the church became mainly gentile. Additionally, for Jesus to assign a pagan title to Peter would have undermined His ministry among the Jewish people who hated the Romans.

    Additionally, Peter is a leader, like all Apostles, in Jerusalem but James the Lord's brother is clearly the main leader in Jerusalem at the time of the Acts 15 council)

    Holding the keys of kingdom is custom of his position. You'll see the Pope's crest is the keys. He has the authority to BIND AND LOOSE.

    (Canadyjd response: If it is a custom, that custom didn't take place until the 5th century.

    Binding and loosing were terms used to pronounce commentary on scripture. If a rabbi "loosed" an activity, like divorce for any reason, then it was accepted practice. If it were bound, it was prohibited.

    The key to understanding this passage is seeing such pronouncements were already loosed or bound in heaven. Jesus knows they will be acting according to God's will because He will send Holy Spirit to indwell.

    All actions, therefore, are only sanctioned by God, through Holy Spirit. We see this in the book of Acts where all the Apostles, not just Peter, met to replace Judas, establish the church, send out missionaries, make pronouncements about clean or unclean foods, welcoming gentiles into God's kingdom and whether gentiles should be circumcized.

    Sorry, you don't have authority to declare Holy Taco Tuesdays and forgive sins by eating tacos. Such thinking is contrary to Holy Spirit and scripture and therefore not already loosed in heaven.

    Anything proclaimed by the the Pope or the church that is contrary to scripture is not approved of by God because God doesn't contradict Himself.)

    John 20
    21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

    (Canadyjd response: Jesus gave Holy Spirit and these commandments to all the Apostles that were there, not just Peter. As far as forgiving sins or not, I see this in the same light as the earlier discussion. Jesus tells them He is sending them as God the Father sent Him. Therefore, any forgiving of sins or not, must be done in Holy Spirit in the same way Jesus did.

    Jesus never offered forgiveness of sins for any reason other than genuine repentance and faith. If the church or Pope offers forgiveness for any other reason, such as Holy Taco Tuesdays, then they are acting outside the will of God and such pronouncements are ineffective.)

    Jesus Christ teaches when someone sins confront them, if they don't listen, take it to the scriptures? NO. Take it to the church.

    (Canadyjd response: Jesus said to take it to the church, according to scripture. The terminology of two or three witnesses refers to the O.T. practice of bringing charges based on witnesses. So, you only got it half right, leaving out scripture.)

    Peace to you
     
    #10 canadyjd, Aug 12, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Your position sounds a lot like the Mormons, who say Joseph Smith will have the keys and decide who to let into Heaven!
    The Gospel itself is the key for that, and ALL believers have the same right to give it forth and to announce salvation has come to all who hear and receive Jesus as Lord!
     
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I answered once, & I'm not gonna answer again, as I don't intend to change it. However, you won't accept it cuz it clashes with the RC garbage you believe.

    You haven't even tried to provide any Scriptural authority for the office of pope now "apostolic succession". And, I don't expect you to, cuz there ISN'T ANY. It's all man made additions to the acts of faith/worship.
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    A little aside - the fish-head mitres the pope often wears represents DAGON, the Philistine fish-god, which was worshipped by the ancient Sumerians & Amorites, & passed on to the Philistines who made it their national deity. Many ancient depictions of Dagon (also called Dagan and Adad) have it wearing a mitre exactly like one of the papal styles.

    Two early Assyrian kings had Dagan in their names.

    Anyone not believing this, just Google dagon or dagon depictions.
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    You dodged once and you keep dodging.

    You had one easy job brother. Give me the definition of bind and loose, forgive and retain sins.

    You failed.

    "You haven't even tried to provide any Scriptural authority for the office of pope now "apostolic succession""

    So far you don't even accept Jesus giving authority to anyone.

    You don't believe the word of Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ says hey you can forgive sins, You say it is a Lie.

    I believe what the scripture says.

    A real bible believing christian ain't got no problem explaining what bind and loose, forgive and retain sins means.

    That is something you going to have to answer irregardless of one being catholic or not.

    You can't harmonize the Church being able to forgive sins because Jesus is not in your church at all, you kicked him out.

    When a priest forgives sins he says:

    God, the Father of mercies,
    through the death and the resurrection of his Son
    has reconciled the world to himself
    and sent the Holy Spirit among us
    for the forgiveness of sins;
    through the ministry of the Church
    may God give you pardon and peace,
    and I absolve you from your sins
    in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.


    The "I absolve you" is in the person of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 2

    10
    To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

    All pardon ultimately comes from Jesus but you don't recognizes the means by which he authorized to dispense it.


    James 5

    13Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed.
     
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    So when John the baptist talks about the lamb of God you worship a sheep-god?

    or when the holy spirit decends its Bird-god?

    Fish-god, Jesus loves eating fish, so guess he is good friends with fish-god for getting best fish and fisher of men.

    Does the shirt on your profile represent the apotheosis of your pagan god-man?

    Make sure not to reply in pagan western characters known as the alphabet.

    And make sure we attack everyone who wears PAGAN wedding RINGS. The Satanic symbol of worshipping satan and having satan close to your heart ring finger left hand. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Only God can forgive sins, correct? Jesus agreed with that, do you?
     
  17. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Maybe He did make Peter the pope by saying this, as it was a very short time to verse 23 where Jesus called him "Satan."
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    IF one see a papacy in the NT, its 3 fold, as peter would be the Pope to the Jews, Paul to the Gentiles, and James to Mother Church of Jerusalem!
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I answered that in the post. Read the prayer and then 2 lines down.
     
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Were not getting a peep. Not even well "Jesus was kidding when he says you can forgive sins."

    ZERO explanation
     
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