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Let's see SCRIPTURAL authority for popes, cardinals, etc.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by robycop3, Aug 10, 2019.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure they ban you.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He was married to His bride, the Church, but God NEVER gave the command that all ministers must be celebate and single!
     
  3. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    The key of David is passed to all who are to be a Steward of the faith. Peter was given KEYS. The Key of David is Christ's Himself. He is the Key knowledge , He is Who opens and no man can shut the door when He opens it. It is like a key point of an understanding being conveyed. Which in this case is understanding of God.

    Like:
    of paramount or crucial importance.
    "He is the Key meaning in all scripture"
    synonyms: crucial, central, essential, indispensable, basic, fundamental, pivotal, critical, decisive, dominant, vital, principal, salient, prime, chief, major, leading, main, important, significant

    To whom He gives Himself of course after knocking " Behold I stand at the door and knock" We say come in, He enters and is essentially the Key to understanding all those heavenly things. He then causes a door to be opened in which no man can shut. The door is opened to heaven and all its knowledge.

    As for who is actually a teacher, shepherd, (Pastor, father rabbi Pope which simply means the same thing as all the rest papa -father -teacher Rabbi etc. And there is scriptural support for that. Pater Greek for -(pastor) which means father in the Greek.
     
  4. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Call No Man Rabbi : TORAH LIFE

    “Text without Context is just a Pretext”.

    Before I explain about the context of “Call no man Rabbi”, I want to give a few scriptures and ask some ques-
    tions.

    Here is the foundational scriptures. It is found in Matthew 23:6-10, which reads:"They love the place of honor
    at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces, and being called
    Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. [Do not call any-
    one on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your
    Leader, that is, the Messiah.”

    This verse created major problems. It is misused to “call no man Rabbi.”

    Q: If we can't judge correctly the simple passages then how are we going to get to the meat of what the Scrip-
    tures offers us?

    Consider This: The word “Rabbi” comes from the Hebrew word “rab” or “rav”, meaning “great” as in
    “numerous” or “much”. The name “Rabbi” means “one who has much”. This is why it is used for “teacher”, -
    because he has much knowledge and understanding. The word “Rabbi” means “Teacher,” as recorded in John
    1:38 “And Jesus turned, and beheld them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? And they said unto
    him,Rabbi (which is to say, being interpreted, Teacher), where abideth thou?”

    The phrase in “which means teacher” is in parenthesis (added by the Translators), yet appears in the Greek text
    as the word “didaskalos” (Greek for “teacher”)

    The word and title “Rabbi” did not come from Babylon. It came into being after the return of Judah to Jerusa-
    lem. Judah would be governed by “Seventy Elders” (theSanhedrin) and the “High Priest”. These elders would
    be a mix of “rabbis”, who would form political parties, based on their interpretations of Scripture, (i.e.Pharisees
    and Sadducees).

    Q: What’s Yeshua’s saying to them?

    Q: Do not become “rabbis” or “teachers”? - No, that is a “gift of ministry.”

    Q: Do not be known as a “father”? - No, even Paul called himself the “father” of Onesimus in Philemon 1:10.
    Alsomany scriptures refers to the patriarchs as our “fathers.”

    Q: Do not be or become known as “leaders”? - No, Why?

    At the last supper, after Yeshua broke the bread and gave thanks, we read in Luke 22:26, “But it is not this way
    with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the ser-
    vant.”

    After saying “only One is your Father", Yeshua proceeded to declare, "And do not be called teachers; for One is
    your Teacher, the Messiah". Yet He Himself acknowledged Nicodemus to be the "teacher of Israel" [John 3:1}

    In the synagogue at Antioch, certain men were called "prophets and teachers".

    Paul not only recognized teachers as gifts of God to the body of Messiah, but he also did not hesitate to call
    himself "a teacher of the Gentiles"

    Major Point: Yeshua was condemning wearing religion on the outside for the praise of men. In the context here,
    He refers to the accepted common usage of His day to the word rabbi as “Master.” This was a misappropriation
    of the term of the title assigning authority not given by God.

    Consider this: A Rabbi is A SOURCE of Knowledge; a Leader is A SOURCE of Authority; and the Father is
    the SOURCE of Life. With this in mind, let’s now consider the questions:

    Rabbi


    It is written in John 3:10, “Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest
    not these things?

    Q: If Yeshua (Jesus) literally meant “Call no man Rabbi (Teacher)”, why would He call Nicodemus “THE
    TEACHER OF ISRAEL”?

    It is written in Ephesians 4:11 “and *he* has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists,
    and some shepherds and teachers “

    Q: If, according to Matthew 23:8, there is only One Teacher (Rabbi), which is the Messiah, why did He give
    teachers to His body as part of the 5-fold Ministry?

    Q: If Yeshua (Jesus) seems to prohibit the use of the term "teacher," Why, in Matthew 28:19–20, does the Mes-
    siah himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: It reads "Go therefore and make disciples of all
    nations . . . teachingthem to observe all that I have commanded you."

    Paul speaks of his commission as a apostle and teacher. It is written in I Timothy 2:7“Whereunto I am ordained
    a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    He also writes in II Timothy 1:11 “Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the
    Gentiles.”

    Q: Was Paul violating the Messiah’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to himself as a "teacher?"

    Father

    Now allow me to quote another part of the verses. It is written in Matthew 23:7-12, “And greetings in the mar-
    kets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ;
    and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
    Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be
    your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be ex-
    alted.

    Consider this: Based on the way you interpreted verse 8, you must also apply that same interpretation to verse 9
    or you will be taking the verse out of its context. With this in mind, I want to ask some more questions:

    Q: What do you call the person who married your mother?

    Point: Paul called himself a Father

    I Corinthians 4:15 – “For even if you have ten thousand trainers in connection with the Messiah, you do not
    have many fathers; for in connection with the Messiah Yeshua it was I who became your father by means of the
    Good News.” It is written in Philemon 1:10, “I beseech thee for my child, whom I have begotten in my bonds,
    Onesimus,” Paul referred to himself as a “father” when he called Onesimus his child.

    Q: Did Paul reject Yeshua’s (Jesus) words when he did this?

    John, the Apostle, calls mature believers in the faith “fathers”. He writes in I John 2:13-14 “I write unto you,
    fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have over-
    come the evil one. I have written unto you, little children, because ye know the Father. I have written unto
    you,fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye
    are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the evil one.

    Q: Did not John “get the memo” when Yeshua (Jesus) spoke these words in Matthew 23?

    Believers sometimes slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people "doctor," for example, medical doctors,
    as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that
    "doctor" is simply the Latin word for "teacher."

    Even "Mister" and "Mrs." are forms of the word "master," also mentioned by Yeshua (Jesus). If his words in
    Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Believers would be just as guilty for using the word "teacher" and
    "doctor" and "mister" as Catholics are for saying "father." Clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of the
    Messiah’s words.

    Yeshua taught according to Torah, never departing from it. If he forbad calling any man “father” he destroyed
    the very Torah that he came to proclaim. How? He would not be disallowing men to address Abraham as the
    forefather of Israel. It would have, from that point onward, caused all those who believed him to skim over the
    Torah that refers to fathers and teachers. It would have also called into question many verses in the Torah and
    many future epistles that became part of Scripture.

    What did Yeshua (Jesus) mean?

    Again, look at the context. He criticized Jewish leaders who love "the place of honor at feasts and the best seats
    in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men" (Matthew 23:6–7). His
    admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their gasping after marks of status and prestige.

    He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud
    they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead
    setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers

    Another example of Hyperbole is when Yeshua (Jesus) said “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and
    throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell"
    (Matthew 5:29, 18:9; Mark 9:47). Yeshua certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all
    believers in the Body of Messiah would be blind amputees!

    Continued:
     
  5. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    There was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Yeshua’s day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially

    those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is

    this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a "cult of personality" around him—of which Yeshua is

    speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.



    He is not forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The exam-

    ple of his own apostles shows us that.



    (NOTE: My Bible is the Hebrew and Greek Study Bible (NASV). It is one of the only Bibles I found that lines

    up with the original manuscripts. It also gives me the meanings of Hebrew and Greek words through the

    Strong’s numbering system).



    With this understanding, reread the context of Matthew 23:1-7, but let me quote it from this Hebrew and Greek

    Study Bible (NASV). It is written “saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of

    Moses: therefore, all that they tell you, do and observe: but do not do according to their deeds; for they say

    things, and do not do them. and they tie up heavy loads and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves

    are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men: for they

    broaden their phylacteries, and lengthen the tassels of their garments, and they love the place of honor at ban-

    quets, and thechief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the marketplaces, and tobe called of

    men, Rabbi.”



    Consider this: Judaism has had an ancient tradition that when a leader is appointed to the Sanhedrin, he declines

    the post three times. In fact it is unheard of within Judaism for a Jew to work ambitiously toward any spiritual

    leadership role with the aim of making a name for himself. Yeshua is stating that no-one should seek titles (in

    particular rabbi) to gratify their own selfish desire. Such a man receives openly the praise of men and in so do-

    ing becomes disqualified from a reward in the World to Come.



    The Messiah was teaching that all titles, which denote mastery of a profession should not be used to make one a

    master over another or allow one to view another as being more important.



    Torah teaches that the greatest person is the one who serves and attends to the needs of others vigilantly



    Remember, Yeshua was talking to Jews and therefore dealt with the title that they were most abusing. In the

    context here He refers to the then accepted common usage of the word rabbi as “Master.” This was a misappro-

    priation of the term of the title assigning authority not given by God. He is not picking on one or two titles out

    of a multitude of manmade titles and forbidding their usage. He is attacking an ungodly principle involving that

    which religious people tend to play. Their desire for titles that men invest with has attached to them authority,

    esteem, and self-importance. This is an ungodly attitude, and is prohibited by Yeshua.



    Unfortunately, the church has a problem with the Hebrew word "Rabbi," but not the concept of “teacher,”

    thereby revealing their latent anti-Semitism. True rabbis are teachers of God’s word. The proof is all the reli-

    gious leaders today who prefix their name with the title “Doctor” that is not earned, yet used to set himself/

    herself apart from the rest of the people is sinful behavior.



    Consider this point: Some religious leaders think they are more accurate to scripture by being called pastoror

    elder. Yet, under the principle of Messiah these titles can be just as much used in an evil way. “Pastor”, scholars

    say, means shepherd,



    With this fact in mind, now answer these questions:



    Who can be a shepherd but the Good Shepherd, Yeshua?
     
  6. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Who is worthy to be called Shepherd except Him?
    Does not the title shepherd distinguish one from the sheep?

    So a pastor cannot be equal with the sheep, but rather the master of the sheep! In addition, the word “pastor” is

    linked to the Greek word pater, which means father.What do we do when we should call no man “father”? It

    was not titles themselves that our Messiah was warning against, but rather the disciple's desire to be exalted.

    God’s Chain of Command

    In any army there is a chain of command. Winning battles depends on everyone's important contribution. The

    chain of command is used for communication and ord YHVH used a chain of command when He set Israel in

    order, using Moses, Samuel and David to define it. By God's Word, there were set judges, elders, priests,

    Prophets, Captains, and eventually Kings and Princes.

    The army of our Messiah, Yeshua, is no different. There must be a chain of command, and titles are used to de-

    fine the chain. The purpose of the title is to set in order, not to puff up those who have them. God has equalized

    his people, as He did with Israel of old, by declaring them all kings and priests in the realm of the Kingdom of

    heaven. But this does not change the necessary chain of command and the appointment of certain ones to cer-

    tain tasks.

    These titles in the chain do not define our importance, but only our responsibility to Him. The title is not evil by

    itself; it is what we think of it. This is why my Rabbi asked to be called “Rabbi.”

    In the Messianic Jewish movement the title of Rabbi consists of a vocation ministry responsibility under the

    Messiah. It is NOT a title of exaltation, but given only for purpose of order in the body. In Modern Hebrew it

    means simply teacher.

    Today a Rabbi is a congregational leader/servant.



    He is an administrator of the business and spiritual things in the congregation given to him by God.
    He organizes and encourages the various gifts and callings in the congregation.
    He is responsible to teach the Torah, the Word of God, soberly with earnest study, but He is not the only one responsible.



    He is traditionally of Jewish origin, so the title helps him to identify with and to serve the Jewish people espe-

    cially, but not exclusively. The Messianic Rabbi is in his role because of Divine appointment, not because of

    personal worth or even skill. He will be judged, according to James 3:1, more severely than most at the judg-

    ment because of his responsibility.Consider this verse: It is written in James 3:1 “Be not many of you teachers,

    my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.”

    This verse sets up the context of Chapter 3 which talks about the “power of the tongue.” To remove this verse,

    as most people do, destroys the entire context of chapter 3.

    Rather than prideful in His work, the Messianic Rabbi mostly feels inadequate, unworthy, and trembling at the

    task. He realizes that nothing he does of himself actually accomplishes anything; that it is Adonai who does all

    that is good and eternal in quality. He knows and acts, knowing that he is no more important than the least, in

    fact, he is the least.



    Shalom
     
  7. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Messianic and Christian mean the same thing "Anointed One of Christ or Meshiach - Hebrew) . And Priest will be anointed in this End of the age to help all . The priesthood is in the order of Melchizedek and consist of both Jew and Gentile. But no doubt Mothers of the faith are too being established " All who do the will of My Father in Heaven are my brother , sister , mother" .A shepherdess is simply one who nurtures the Christ Male Child within. But a presbyter (one who leads the congregation is a man) He is a teacher, rabbi( father) Pater (pastor) pope (papa) they all mean the same thing. But that anointing will be given by Christ and seminary is not a determining factor. LOVE of the WORD of God is.
     
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    That takes us back to bind and loose. There are Catholic priest who are married and with children.

    This thread had a focus. POPE which means father. I give you an example how Paul is Father of timothy.

    2nd BISHOP OF ROME. I gave scriptural support for Bishops.

    now the argument is switching to why priest don't get married. Which again is the subject of bind and loose.

    When we have are squabbles Jesus is clear :

    17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

    There he is talking about the CHURCH and its authority to bind and loose. Those who couldn't stand final ruling of the church started their own religions.

    Jesus Christ did not start your faith. Some guy left another faith to start his own thing. John Smyth english speratist left the anglicans to start his own BAPTIST church, later he dumped the religion he invented, left to be a Mennonite.

    Google WHO STARTED THE BAPTIST CHURCH? ANSWER-> John Smyth

    GOOGLE who started the Catholic church? ANSWER-> JESUS CHRIST.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus founded the true Church, which teaches the true Gospel, and RCC stopped that at Council pf Trent!
     
  10. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    No, they wouldn't. Plenty of threads created on the subject here. nobody banned unless they become nasty and rude.
     
  11. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    I think what any rational person can conclude from this thread (aided by scripture) is, there obviously are teachers set up by Christ. And there are men unfortunately who have abused their roles throughout all church history and all denominations. I think that we can all agree upon that. And as a matter of fact all of us in here for the most part are taking positions to be teachers toward one another to various degrees. Some are way off " let not many of you become teachers, for upon you is a greater judgement."

    I would say some have some useful views. I think God is leveling the playing field. But there seems to be a BIGGER problem.
    What happens when the heads of the instituted denominations have less than stellar records? What happens when position and rules and laws founded on traditions instead of faith in the Word takes over? Are we to believe that we are to be obedient to chaos?
     
    #71 OfLivingWaters, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    1 Tim.41But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

    Celibacy for clergy is just another man-made addition to God's commands, in violation of Mark 7:8.

    As fir Post #31, that's quite an imaginative stretch of the Greek. Still no Scriptural support for a pope. The only possible "vicar" Jesus appointed in His place is the HOLY SPIRIT, whom Jesus said He'd send in His place, but even He does not have Jesus' authority to forgive sins.
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    True. And, as RCs claim Peter was the first pope, how do they get by the fact Peter was married ? And Utilyan admits it was the CHURCH AT ROME that decided RC clergy must be celibate.
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Case for pope is right here:

    1 Corinthians 4

    15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

    He saying he became his POPE.


    Forgive and Retain sins.

    John 20

    23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”


    We bible believers believe the scriptures. You just say Jesus was kidding.
     
  15. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    You fail to prove your claim to be true. You fail to demonstrate that you believe completely all of what the Scriptures state in your selective misinterpretation and misuse of a few verses. You interpret verses incorrectly when you make them contradict other verses.

    Your own posts would contradict your claim to be supposedly a true bible believer since you reject some clear scriptural truths. You ignore and avoid the clear scriptural truths that contradict non-scriptural Roman Catholic claims.
     
  16. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Are you suggesting that google is your authority?

    Google is the not the standard and authority for the truth.

    Perhaps google brought up an unproven claim by some Roman Catholic as the supposed answer.
     
  17. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for demonstrating your clear misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

    Paul was not at all saying that he became the pope. Paul brought the gospel--the word of God--to them so that he had begotten them through the gospel or in that sense he is their spiritual father.

    1 Peter 1:23
    Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    1 Peter 1:25
    But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    Your posts show that you choose to cling to corruptible things such as "vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers" (1 Peter 1:18) instead of truly and soundly believing the word of God.

    Are you suggesting that Paul was the pope of the Corinthian church so that Peter could not have been their pope and so that Peter also could not be the pope of any to which he was not the one who first brought the gospel to them?
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That same Peter stated that Paul was the "pope" to the Gentiles, just as he was to the Jews, so unless one is Jewish, Paul would be your first Pope!
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for demonstrating your massive intellect and erudite common sense.

    "....in that sense he is their spiritual father."

    Blah blah blah....same here. No different. In the exact same sense.

    Paul became their SPIRITUAL POPE. POPE is just a word for father get that through first.

    The apostles also call everyone their children.

    Lets settle this first POPE, exists that is FATHER. It is in scripture. YOU HAVE LEARNED YOUR LESSON.

    Now we can deal with the office Bishop of Rome and Peter's primacy.
     
  20. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Y'all need to get your story straight!

    The Reformed Baptists' historian Tom Chantry:

    Tom Chantry: Pope Francis Is The Antichrist

    "Our confession summarizes the case against the Pope...he is the Antichrist...."the Pope of Rome..is that Antichrist...whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Second London Confession of Faith, Chapter XXVI, Paragraph 4....Pope Francis is the Antichrist."
     
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