Let's talk about Ellen White - SDA prophet

Not any more than "behold I come quickly" makes you a contemporary with John the revelator.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Here is Marcia's first example of a problem with Ellen White


Numbers 11

Counsels on Diet and Foods: P 148

[/quote]

Marcia - where exactly are you claiming there is a problem??

in Christ,

Bob

 

Marcia's second example of a problem with Ellen White in the 1800's is from a book entitled "Christ's Object Lessons".

On page 155 Ellen White deals with the current issue (in the 1800's) of something called a "holy flesh" cult that believed that they were "beyond temptation" and that they had reached a state of "holy flesh".

The term "saved" in this 1800's context as used by the "holy flesh" cult - did not mean what it means today. It meant "beyond the reach of temptation".

Ellen White condemned that spirit and argued instead for the Bible doctrine on Perseverance!

And the careful read will also note that she explicitly affirms today's version of "saved" saying back then that the saints could "KNOW" that they are fully accepted by Christ.

Notice how she affirms this assurance of salvation for the saved saint (SM refers to Volume 1 of the book Selected Messages)

Here is another example of her view on this -- given in a letter to a friend of hers.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Phil 2 Christ is said to have "emptied himself" to enter into human flesh.

in Matt 24:36 Christ states that even He did not know the time of the 2nd coming.

In John 12 Christ said He could of His own self do nothing and that His words were not his own - but the FAther's Words.

In Matt 4 Christ is tempted to use His own Creator God power to turn stone into bread and provide food after 40 days of hunger. Christ refused.

Marcia's 3rd example - refers to the fact that He also did not know the results of the Cross by divine vision - He knew it only by trust in the Father.

But in ALL these cases Christ as God COULD have chosen to know it - but his mission on earth was to lay aside God power and God's infinite knowledge - to walk on earth as we must - in human flesh - subject to the pain and suffering that we live with. So that means that even if he had had no food or water for 40 days and was extremely hungry -- He still would not rely on "self" - but would hold to faith in His Father's provisions as we must.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Interesting.. no actual quotes... so What does it actually say? Is there really a contradiction here -- or is the web site Marcia is listing - relying on the fact that the reader simply wont look into the "details"??



Desire of Ages says that Judas "hardened his heart against repentance" instead of yielding to conviction.

Desire of Ages 645 -

compared to Evangelism 275 the conviction concept in Ev 275 includes the "fountains of the soul broken up" and "every barrier that causes disunion and alienation" broken down.

Obviously the statements in the Desire of Ages do NOT say of Judas that every "barrier that caused division and disunion" in the heart of Judas "was broken down". In fact Desire of Ages states that Judas "hardened his heart" against it. And it makes that statement in the very area that the Web site Marcia quotes - tells us to look for the exact opposite information.

in Christ,

Bob

 

This is a fun game so far. :type::godisgood:

 

Indeed. You have "I come quickly" as the statement covering 2000 years.

You have "just before" as a statement covering less than 700 years at a time when men lived for almost 1000 years.

hmmm - not the silver bullet you were hoping for is it!

You seem to be majoring in minors at this point. I assumed from all the smoke and fury you announced for this - that you had something a bit more substantive.

Oh well - to each his own.

in Christ,

Bob

 

This thread is about as generic as it gets - you titled it "let's talk about Ellen White".

How in the world does it prevent you from saying whatever you wish?

I find your logic illusive - I must admit.

in Christ,

Bob

 

your whining takes the form of "I don't read so I don't know what I am talking about".

When you talk about the preflood world of Adam - Noah and make wild claims to having actually read what Ellen White wrote on that preflood time period -- you are claiming to have read the BOOK "Patriarchs and Prophets" (at the very least) where we find over 100 pages talking about the saints of the preflood world that you imagine you have a leg to stand on.

More related preflood material is also presented in a number of other volumes - LOTS of text dealing with the life of Adam, and Enoch and Noah. None of it saying "God showed me that Adam, Enoch and Noah were all contemporaries". ALL of it affirming the fact that Enoch lives only 300 years on earth and that Enoch's son lives for almost 1000 years and that at the year of the death of Methuselah - the flood takes place.

And THIS is where you think you have a case about Enoch, Adam and Noah being contemporary??

Hello!

There is a reason that no SDA believes the little story you tell -- based on two editorial typos found in various news style publications over decades of time.

(Just stating the obvious here - but since you seem to enjoy that. My aim is to please.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

Yes - she claims to have had inspired visions and dreams on all of those topics. In a number of cases those visions took place in a public meetings where there were doctors present.

At those times she would cease to breathe - sometimes for more than an hour.

In another example while in vision she stood up - held large family Bible over her head and pointing to scripture after scripture - quoted texts specific to a particular subject that was being debated by those attending. When she came out of vision - the vision itself was on an entirely different topic.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Yes, that is what the SDA believes. White is treated as an authoritative source, like the bible. SDA people will deny this but it is how their church officially views White.

White also said that those who worship on Sunday will have the "mark of the Beast" when Jesus returns. Iow, if you are worshiping on Sunday when Jesus comes back, that's bad news for you!

There is also the matter of the Investigative Judgment. After Jesus did not return as predicted by Wm Miller in 1844, they came up with an explanation: this is the year that Jesus entered the heavenly sanctuary to "investigate" believers to see if they merit salvation. White went along with this and endorsed it. This is a centerpiece of SDA theology.

I recommend the website I posted before and this one:
http://www.watchman.org/profile/sdapro.htm

http://www.watchman.org/profile/sdapro.htm

There is no assurance of salvation by grace alone.

 

Also, see
http://www.cephasministry.com/7theday-cultic-doctrines-of-seventh-day-adventists.html

While some consider the SDA cultic, other Christians consider it heterodox - a mixture of orthodoxy with aberrant teachings. It seems that a large part of those aberrant doctrines have come from Ellen White.

 

1. You realize of course - "that makes no sense". For any denomination to flourish and grow they have to "teach" whatever doctrine they want to promote. "denying a doctrine" is not a "funny kinda way to promote it".

2. The actual "fact" is that Adventists accept the 1Cor 12 teaching on spiritual gifts that includes the gift of prophecy - as stated in scripture.

Prophecy is "by definition" a message from God. But the messages of all prophets are tested "sola scriptura" -- and when that prophet claims that the message is "via divine revelation through the gift of prophecy" then testing that message also tests whether the prophet is a true prophet or not.

Hence in 1 1Cor 14 - Paul says that prophecy "is a sign for believers not for unbelievers".

Rev 14 says that the saints at the end of time are those who "keep the commandments" (Interesting that Paul says "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19)

Adventists (including Ellen White) do not teach that those who keep Sunday instead of honoring the 4th commandment today "have the Mark of the Beast".

However Adventists do predict that at some point in the future God will raise this issue at a world-wide level and that all will be lead to study the Bible on that subject.

If that future act of God never takes place -- then clearly the SDA prediction in that reguard will be proven wrong.

To be accurate - Adventist teaching is that at Jesus ascension into heaven He entered the heavenly sanctuary "once for all" and at that time He began His Ministry as our "High Priest" (Hebrews chapters 7 through 9 make that very obvious).

The Oct 22, 1844 event you mention above is about the close of the 2300 prophetic days of Daniel 8 where Christ enters the Most Holy Place of that Heavenly Sanctuary for the antitypical "Day of Atonement" phase of the sanctuary service.

Assurance of salvation is as always - the same as we see in Rom 8:16.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Here is the link to "actual" Adventist doctrine.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

The careful reader will note from the statements there that - no Adventist doctrine comes from Ellen White -

Arguably there is one exception to that statement.

In the 1880's Ellen White began publishing very explicit statements in favor of the doctrine of the Trinity. Until that time the Adventist denomination was heavily influenced by statements from James White strongly opposing the Trinity doctrine. As a result of Ellen White's endorsement of the Trinity in the 1880's and 1890's many Adventist took a closer look a the Bible support for the Trinity doctrine and then accepted that teaching. It now shows up in that list of doctrinal statements -- but even so, the statement uses no quote at all from Ellen White to make the case for the Trinity.

Other than that - nothing in that list has her fingerprint on it as source or author or "proving authority".

in Christ,

Bob