Libertarian Free Will is an Extra-Biblical Commitment

Go up a few verses and you will see that no one is bound in unbelief.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Paul is speaking here of unbelieveing Jews that have been broken off the olive tree. But he also shows that they can repent of unbelief and be graffed back into the tree. And it does not say that God has to make them believe, it says if the Jews "abide not" in unbelief they shall be graffed in. And notice that it also says God is able to graff them in "again". This shows they were the elect but were broken off by their unbelief. But if they repent God is able to graff them in "again" and they will be the elect.

As far as the blind, the healing of the blind and lame is a picture of salvation. They had to come to him believeing while they were still in a state of blindness to be healed. This disproves your doctrine that a person is regenerated to believe.

Matt 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Notice when these blind men approached Jesus and asked for mercy, that Jesus asked them if they believed he was able to heal them. That would be a ridiculous question if God gave them faith, as Jesus being God would already know they had faith.

And this is what is so absurd about Calvinism. You have God contradicting himself hundreds of times, begging sinners to believe when they cannot, asking people if they have faith when he should already know if they have faith or not. I find it amazing that Calvinists cannot see how ridiculous their doctrine is.

And then notice what Jesus says to these blind men after he healed them (which took place after they believed). He said:

"According to your faith be it unto you."

Jesus said the faith was theirs, not his. And God will not give his glory to another.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

If God gave these men their faith, then Jesus just gave God's glory to these blind men, saying it was their faith.

 

Incorrect. You are completely misrepresenting Calvinism. Since you claim to believe the bible, then I trust that you believe 1 Corinthians 2;14,

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Do you believe that verse? If so, then what's the criteria according to that verse for one to believe in God? I'll give you a hint; the answer can be found in the preceding verses:

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.'

So if you believe the above verses then answer this; what gives man faith?:

1) His sinful nature
2) The devil
3) The Holy Spirit

So what does one have to have in order to believe in God? Once you know that faith comes from the HS because it's a gift from God, then you know that one has to ask God for the Counselor, the HS, in order to have faith. And God makes it clear all through scripture that God decides whom he draws to him; John 6:63-43, Romans 9:11, MT. 11:252-7, 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 and many, many more scriptures explains that it's God who gets to choose who enters his kingdom, not his creation. But again, since only God knows who His elect are, then no man can say that God is not drawing him. Therefore all men are without excuse and salvation is open to anyone who wants it. That reconciles all scripture together.

It's also a beautiful plan and the only plan that can work because it makes salvation open to all and yet God retains his sovereignty.

 

Winman,

I have a question for you; Do you think that atheists don't believe in God because they can't wait to spend an eternity in torment rather than in the bliss of heaven?

If so, you are 100% wrong. Atheists don't believe in hell because they are being deceived by Satan that God, heaven and hell don't exist. So they cannot believe in God by their own free will . Only the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit can break the bonds of Satan's deceptions and make us have the ability see see and understand the truth as 1 Corinthians 2:14 explains.

 

OK, I'll try to answer one question at a time.

As for misrepresenting Calvinism, I am probably guilty on that. But there are many Calvinists with varying opinions. Not all Calvinists are 5 point Calvinists. So, it is pretty much impossible to know what the Calvinist doctrine is when they don't agree among themselves what it is.

2 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Notice that the first thing this verse says it that the natural man "receiveth not" the things of the Spirit of God. Now that is important. Because before God will reveal the scriptures to you, you must first believe and accept what you are shown. This is what Jesus was speaking about in the parable of the sower.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

After Jesus told his disciples the parable of the sower, he warned them to be very careful how they hear. This shows they have the ability to hear if they so choose. But to those who will willingly hear and believe, to them God will reveal more. But to those that refuse to hear, then even the little revealed to them will be taken away.

So this is why the word of God seems foolish to the natural man. In order to understand the scriptures you must first believe the simple things shown you, the milk of the word. Only if you sincerely hear and believe will God reveal the meat of the word to you.

And even believers have a difficult time with God's word, I know I do. Men have been debating God's word for centuries. Just because you are a believer does not guarantee you will understand all of God's word. It takes study, and the revelation from the Holy Spirit.

But unsaved man can understand the gospel. The gospel is really very simple and the scriptures say a child can understand it.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You are not regenerated to believe. You are made wise to believe. But you have to listen with a sincere heart and trust God's word.

The scriptures say the gospel is simple.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I believe faith is a "common grace" that is an ability given from God to all men whether saved or unsaved. This is why Jesus can ask men if they believe. Look at the story of the man whose son was possessed by a devil.

Mark 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

Now notice there were two questions asked in this passage. First, the father of the boy asked Jesus if he could do any thing to help him.

And how did Jesus respond? Jesus turned it completely around and said "if thou canst believe". Jesus was saying it is not a question whether he can heal the boy, the real question was whether the father believed Jesus was the Son of God and could heal him.

And notice the father cried with tears in his eyes. He had many doubts. The disciples had just failed to heal his son so it is understandable he was a little discouraged. But he did believe in Jesus, even though he was completely aware that his faith was weak. And Jesus healed his son.

Now why would Jesus ask this man or any other if he could believe? If Calvinism is correct, then the answer would be NO 100% of the time. According to you a man cannot possibly believe unless God first regenerates him. And if God had regenerated this man to believe, the question is non-sensical because Jesus would be completely aware that this man could believe. In fact, it would be impossible for him not to.

Faith is not imposed on us like some supernatural spell. Faith comes by hearing and believeing God's word. That is what the scriptures say.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is a gift from God that in the sense that we could not believe God's word unless he first provided it. And Paul shows this in the very same chapter of Romans.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul is asking a very simple and straightforward question which makes perfect sense. He is asking how any man can possibly believe on Jesus Christ unless he has first heard about him. So without God's holy scriptures none of us would know about Christ. So if we know Christ we owe it all to God and his mercy in revealing the word of God to us.

 

Again, for the umpteenth time, you have to put all scripture together. You cannot ignore the verses I quoted when you quote your verses...ever.

So when you put the verses I've quoted together with the verses you quoted, you get that man can do nothing good by his sinful nature. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can man do anything that honors God because the sinful nature does what's CONTRARY to the Holy Spirit as Galatians 5:17 explains. And that is why atheists cannot choose to believe in God by their own free will because they are being deceived by Satan that God does not exist.

So until you reconcile the verses you quoted and the verses I quoted together, then there is no point in continuing this conversation.

 

I have answered you several times.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I pointed out that the very first thing this verse says about the natural man is that he "receiveth not" the things of the Spirit of God. That means they reject it.

Get out a concordance and look up "receiveth not". Here are a few examples.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

This was Jesus himself speaking. He says these people reject him and receiveth not his words. They could hear these words and believe if they chose to, but they chose to reject Jesus and would not listen to his preaching, much like you will not listen to what I am telling you now.

You could listen to my words if you chose to, but you chose to reject me and what I am telling you right now.

I am not comparing myself to Jesus, I am just showing you what these people were doing.

And that is the first thing 1 Cor 2:14 says about the natural man. They refuse to listen. Therefore, because they will not listen to the word of God, God takes away even that which was offered to them. And this is what Jesus meant when he told his disciples to take heed and be very careful how they hear.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Jesus is telling his disciples that if they will carefully listen and believe his words, then more will be given to them. But if they refuse to listen, even that which was given to them shall be taken away.

And this is what the scriptures teach. If a man refuses to listen to God, God will give the man what he wants. He will allow that man to be deceived because they do not love the truth.

2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God doesn't blind men for no reason at all. If a man wants to learn from God, then God will give him knowledge. But if a man rebels against God and does not want to hear the truth of his words, then God will allow Satan to deceive that man. God is actually giving these evil men what they want. They want to believe a lie rather than the truth, so God allows it.

So, the reason a man cannot understand the things of God is first because he rejects what God has told him. So God allows that man to be deceived and blinded.

And this is shown over and over again in scripture. Look at Romans 1.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Here again, because men love evil and want nothing to do with God, and because they do not want to hear his words, God gives them up, or gives them over to a reprobate mind. So it is not without just reason that God does this.

Here is another example.

Matt 10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

When Jesus sent out his disciples, he told them to salute a house when they came to it. If the people inside would listen to the gospel, then Jesus told them to let their peace come upon it.

But if they would not receive the disciples into their house, and would not hear their preaching, then Jesus told them to shake the dust off their feet in front of them. And then Jesus told how these people would be punished in the judgment.

So, read 1 Corinthians 2:14 very slowly and note that they refused to hear God's word, they would not receive it, and then you will understand why they could not understand God's word.

 

I'll go with what God says in 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 about why people can't understand God's word. Since you ignore that verse, you have no clue why atheists can't believe even though they've heard the word. But I do since I believe that verse.

 

...so like them, you choose to be blinded to the truth. Winman has put the verse in context for you, and you would rather hold on to your soteriology over the truth.

 

What 'truth" am I blinded from? your claim that man can choose not to sin by his own free will? If that's true, then why do we need a savior? Did Jesus die for his health? or don't you like to answer questions, just attack people?

 

Are you the pot of the kettle? You have proven my point with this post...you didn't even read the truth that Winman has given you in your "proof text" verse you keep quoting here.

Again, if there is a true choice involved, by the very definition of that phrase, there are more than one option. Quit redefining words and phrases.

Your last questions are so juvenile they are not worthy of an answer.

 

Winman's interpretation of those verses contradict: Romans 3;11, Romans 9:11-16, The story of Jacob who wrestled with God. So he doesn't put scripture together any more than you do.

[Attacking the salvation of others is not permitted]