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Limited Sovereignty?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by quantumfaith, Apr 23, 2010.

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  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    God in His sovereignty created made with the ability and capacity to make choices. Man is able to make good and bad choices. If that were not the case then commands in scripture would be unnecessary and contrary to God's character.
     
    #21 gb93433, Apr 25, 2010
  2. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    As I recall Dr. Schroeder phrased it as God created the laws of nature such as gravity; but God lets the river find its own way down the valley.
     
    #22 olegig, Apr 26, 2010
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    To expand this discussion, shouldn't we also consider the "dominion" or "power" or "authority" God has granted to other creatures besides men? For example, Eph. 6:12 states, "Our fight is not against human beings. It is against the rulers, the authorities and the powers of this dark world. It is against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly world."

    Clearly Paul believed that God has allowed others to have dominion, authority and rule in this world. Does that lesson His Sovereignty? I suppose that depends on how one defines "sovereign," but it seems like we all can agree that any power or authority is GIVEN by God, and no one else.

    My question is this: Does "libertarian freedom" (the ability to other than what one ends up doing) somehow negate Divine Sovereignty if God is the grantor of that freedom?
     
    #23 Skandelon, Apr 27, 2010
  4. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    IMO that depends on how one defines the sovereignty of God.
    If God's sovereignty is somehow limited to only what God has decreed would happen, then the answer might be yes.
    However, if one defines God's sovereignty as not only knowing what will happen; but also knowing what would happen because of a different choice or path, then the answer is no.
     
    #24 olegig, Apr 27, 2010
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Is this the same Jewish Dr. Schroeder you were quoting on another thread?
     
    #25 kyredneck, Apr 27, 2010
  6. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    Same Dr. same creation and same God.
     
    #26 olegig, Apr 27, 2010
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    For me it becomes a question as to whether there is distinction between the attributes of God's sovereignty and God's omniscience. Is there a distinction between God knowing all things vs. God "causing" all things? (Honest question)
    For those who hold to a completely "deterministic" theology, how then can one escape the claim of God "causing or creating" evil?
     
    #27 quantumfaith, Apr 27, 2010
  8. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Yes, I think that is how Dr. Schroeder phrased it, as far as I can understand and comprehend it in my finitude is this, God has established all the parameters within which all of creation is bound to operate. I see it that God has granted, at least to some degree, the freedom to operate within those parameters. Man, having the "neshama" and "imago deo" has been granted the greatest degree of freedom.
    Just my simpleton thoughts.
     
    #28 quantumfaith, Apr 27, 2010
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Does this same Dr. Schroeder, who is of another religion, have the same Spirit of Christ in him as our religion? What is it about him that you two believe makes him qualified to bring to the table of the Baptistboard, which incidentally happens to be Christian and not Jewish?
     
    #29 kyredneck, Apr 28, 2010
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    How would you define dominion. If dominion is limited in any way it is no longer dominion. God gave man dominion over all the earth. Man is destroying this planet, to be able to destroy it is soveregin rule. He is destroying it because of his own greed and will continue until God steps in and says his dominion is over with. God gave man dominion and God will take it away in the renewal of all things.
    MB
     
    #30 MB, Apr 28, 2010
  11. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    Which part of what he said do you disagree with, that God created gravity, or that the river finds its own path down the valley?
     
    #31 olegig, Apr 28, 2010
  12. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    GF=M1M2/D^2

    Gravitation force is equivalent to the ratio of the product of mass 1 and mass2 divided by the square of the distance between them (Isaac Newton)

    As per your comment about Dr. Schroeder, being "jewish", seems as though Christ himself was also a jew. I believe in the same that Dr. Schroeder does... YHWH How about you? Obviously, Dr. Schroeder and I (and you) would part ways with regard to Jesus of Nazareth, but I fail to see your implication that because of this, he (Schroeder) has nothing to add to the debate of the metaphysical.
     
    #32 quantumfaith, Apr 28, 2010
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Who is R Zacharias?
     
    #33 kyredneck, Apr 30, 2010
  14. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Ravi Zacharias, a well known "Christian apologist".
     
    #34 quantumfaith, Apr 30, 2010
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